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  1. #21
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    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    In comic books, whenever the story involved some super super beyond reckoning powerful being, they always put symbols in the talk bubbles, and bold them.</div></div>
    My little point is that someBODY had to teach Him those words er symbols.</div></div>
    If we assume your point is true, then the argument easily becomes circular - who taught the &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, and who taught the person who thought that &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, ad infinitum. If we presuppose the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God, why would it be difficult to conceive that such a being would be all complete, lacking nothing, including the ability to communicate in language? One deficiency and his omni-whatever would be up in smoke!
    aka ChurchDude. I want that moniker back! Until then....

    "Sometimes you have to let go to see if there was anything worth holding on to"
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  2. #22
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    Re: Does God have a language?

    why accept a presupposition that is baseless and offered out of incredulity.
    a noble stroke he lifted high that hung not but swift with tempest fell On Satan's proud crest- no sight nor swift thought, less could his shield such ruin intercept; 10 paces huge he back recoil'd...

  3. #23
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    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why accept a presupposition that is baseless and offered out of incredulity. </div></div>
    Because any discussion about God's attributes (or lack thereof) starts with presupposing His existence, or the discussion is meaningless.
    aka ChurchDude. I want that moniker back! Until then....

    "Sometimes you have to let go to see if there was anything worth holding on to"
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  4. #24
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    Re: Does God have a language?

    not necessarily, a discussion about God can also take place regarding non existence of such an entity and use the attributes assigned to him mythologically to defeat the premise.

    for example, nobody here would argue Santa Claus exists. Yet we can discuss everything claimed about him, like how can he eat all these cookies if he really did exist.
    a noble stroke he lifted high that hung not but swift with tempest fell On Satan's proud crest- no sight nor swift thought, less could his shield such ruin intercept; 10 paces huge he back recoil'd...

  5. #25
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    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not necessarily, a discussion about God can also take place regarding non existence of such an entity and use the attributes assigned to him mythologically to defeat the premise.</div></div>
    How does one say God doesn't exist and prove it absolutely? The test of the proof in such a case is virtually impossible given He's outside of anything that could be used to test His existence or lack of.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for example, nobody here would argue Santa Claus exists. Yet we can discuss everything claimed about him, like how can he eat all these cookies if he really did exist. </div></div>
    That may be a way to pass time, but one would be hard pressed to characterize it as meaningful discussion.
    aka ChurchDude. I want that moniker back! Until then....

    "Sometimes you have to let go to see if there was anything worth holding on to"
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  6. #26
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    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not necessarily, a discussion about God can also take place regarding non existence of such an entity and use the attributes assigned to him mythologically to defeat the premise.</div></div>
    How does one say God doesn't exist and prove it absolutely? The test of the proof in such a case is virtually impossible given He's outside of anything that could be used to test His existence or lack of.</div></div>

    But you are assuming, why do we need to 'give' anything at all? How do you know he is outside of anything, you don't even know if he exists in the first place as nobody has any qualitative evidence to suggest that what they believe is really believable. We don't *have* to start from that premise. Like if someone came to you and said, there is a Santa Claus. I believe it. Here's the evidence.

    YOU are saying he is outside of anything that could be used to test his existence, but then any time some attribute is claimed on his behalf, you are actually introducing something testable- there can be a test of that existence, especially when such attributes are things like, omniscience, all loving, etc.

    Unless you are saying that nobody can claim anything about God at all. And if that is the case, there are millions and millions of people spinning their wheels in nonsense.
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for example, nobody here would argue Santa Claus exists. Yet we can discuss everything claimed about him, like how can he eat all these cookies if he really did exist. </div></div>
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That may be a way to pass time, but one would be hard pressed to characterize it as meaningful discussion. </div></div>

    That depends on your belief and how you like your sacred cow- bone in rib-eye medium rare or rib rack barbecued. For a young poor child who is a good kid, maybe it is a big deal to him to want to know why Santa doesn't come and give him presents.

    From the OT, it seems like it's Barbecue.
    a noble stroke he lifted high that hung not but swift with tempest fell On Satan's proud crest- no sight nor swift thought, less could his shield such ruin intercept; 10 paces huge he back recoil'd...

  7. #27
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    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My little point is that someBODY had to teach Him those words er symbols.</div></div>
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we assume your point is true, then the argument easily becomes circular - who taught the &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, and who taught the person who thought that &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, ad infinitum. If we presuppose the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God, why would it be difficult to conceive that such a being would be all complete, lacking nothing, including the ability to communicate in language? One deficiency and his omni-whatever would be up in smoke! </div></div>
    But this isn't a first cause, Prime Mover argument... I hope. It's a conundrum about the nature of language, and how any being must grow up amongst people speaking in order to have words running in their mind. Words are the product of human society.
    Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for a kindness. ~Seneca~

  8. #28
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    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">very intriguing thread.

    it would seem that men have always considered breath- and thus speaking- to be something of power and of life. I recall reading a paper by a cave art researcher who argued that what was depicted in the cave paintings of the animals were not really a hunt per se, but some shamanic practice and the 'blood' coming from the animals was actually to be interpreted as breath, even farting.</div></div>
    Yes. I agree. The life's breath is on the inside and comes out in words. And we have words constantly going on in our minds... explaining everything, telling our story again and again... rationalizing, explaining, perfecting.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    also found this, about the Norse All-Father god Odin- curious to note that his power is also manifest by speaking or singing:</div></div>
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Song of Spells

    145.
    Those songs I know, which nor sons of men
    nor queen in a king's court knows;
    the first is Help which will bring thee help
    in all woes and in sorrow and strife.
    146.
    A second I know, which the son of men
    must sing, who would heal the sick.

    147.
    A third I know: if sore need should come
    of a spell to stay my foes;
    when I sing that song, which shall blunt their swords,
    nor their weapons nor staves can wound.

    148.
    A fourth I know: if men make fast
    in chains the joints of my limbs,
    when I sing that song which shall set me free,
    spring the fetters from hands and feet.

    149.
    A fifth I know: when I see, by foes shot,
    speeding a shaft through the host,
    flies it never so strongly I still can stay it,
    if I get but a glimpse of its flight.

    150.
    A sixth I know: when some thane would harm me
    in runes on a moist tree's root,
    on his head alone shall light the ills
    of the curse that he called upon mine.

    151.
    A seventh I know: if I see a hall
    high o'er the bench-mates blazing,
    flame it ne'er so fiercely I still can save it, --
    I know how to sing that song.

    152.
    An eighth I know: which all can sing
    for their weal if they learn it well;
    where hate shall wax 'mid the warrior sons,
    I can calm it soon with that song.

    153.
    A ninth I know: when need befalls me
    to save my vessel afloat,
    I hush the wind on the stormy wave,
    and soothe all the sea to rest.

    154.
    A tenth I know: when at night the witches
    ride and sport in the air,
    such spells I weave that they wander home
    out of skins and wits bewildered.

    155.
    An eleventh I know: if haply I lead
    my old comrades out to war,
    I sing 'neath the shields, and they fare forth mightily
    safe into battle,
    safe out of battle,
    and safe return from the strife.

    156.
    A twelfth I know: if I see in a tree
    a corpse from a halter hanging,
    such spells I write, and paint in runes,
    that the being descends and speaks.

    157.
    A thirteenth I know: if the new-born son
    of a warrior I sprinkle with water,
    that youth will not fail when he fares to war,
    never slain shall he bow before sword.

    158.
    A fourteenth I know: if I needs must number
    the Powers to the people of men,
    I know all the nature of gods and of elves
    which none can know untaught.

    159.
    A fifteenth I know, which Folk-stirrer sang,
    the dwarf, at the gates of Dawn;
    he sang strength to the gods, and skill to the elves,
    and wisdom to Odin who utters.

    160.
    A sixteenth I know: when all sweetness and love
    I would win from some artful wench,
    her heart I turn, and the whole mind change
    of that fair-armed lady I love.

    161.
    A seventeenth I know: so that e'en the shy maiden
    is slow to shun my love.

    162.
    These songs, Stray-Singer, which man's son knows not,
    long shalt thou lack in life,
    though thy weal if thou win'st them, thy boon if thou obey'st them
    thy good if haply thou gain'st them.

    163.
    An eighteenth I know: which I ne'er shall tell
    to maiden or wife of man
    save alone to my sister, or haply to her
    who folds me fast in her arms;
    most safe are secrets known to but one-
    the songs are sung to an end.

    164.
    Now the sayings of the High One are uttered in the hall
    for the weal of men, for the woe of Jötuns,
    Hail, thou who hast spoken! Hail, thou that knowest!
    Hail, ye that have hearkened! Use, thou who hast learned!
    </div></div>
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    also note the last stanza, slightly reminiscent isn't it. </div></div>
    Good read! The power of words spoken just so!
    Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for a kindness. ~Seneca~

  9. #29
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    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My little point is that someBODY had to teach Him those words er symbols.</div></div>
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we assume your point is true, then the argument easily becomes circular - who taught the &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, and who taught the person who thought that &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, ad infinitum. If we presuppose the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God, why would it be difficult to conceive that such a being would be all complete, lacking nothing, including the ability to communicate in language? One deficiency and his omni-whatever would be up in smoke! </div></div>
    But this isn't a first cause, Prime Mover argument... I hope. It's a conundrum about the nature of language, and how any being must grow up amongst people speaking in order to have words running in their mind. Words are the product of human society.

    </div></div>
    I agree, but consider that if I take your argument to the logical conclusion, it says that if God has a language it had to be developed from somewhere, or by somebody, or some culture. The problem is you're trying to bring God to the level of humans and saying if the development of language among humans is the product of culture/society, then it must be the same for God. I disagree with that premise primarily because the Christian God we are talking about is said to be omni-everything, and so is not bound by the same limitations, or required prequisites for something to happen, as humans are.
    aka ChurchDude. I want that moniker back! Until then....

    "Sometimes you have to let go to see if there was anything worth holding on to"
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  10. #30
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    Re: Does God have a language?

    CEW are you familiar with the definition of omnipotence which excludes the logically impossible.
    a noble stroke he lifted high that hung not but swift with tempest fell On Satan's proud crest- no sight nor swift thought, less could his shield such ruin intercept; 10 paces huge he back recoil'd...

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