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franksterr
09-29-2010, 06:54 AM
In spite of sanctions which are still in place.

Has Mugabe been vindicated?



South Africans, Zimbabwean, Garikai Chengu, Land Democratisation Programme, Researcher at Harvard University, Faculty of Arts and Sciences, Rainbow, Limpopo, Seventy, State, South Africa, North, Government

Land reform driving economic growth By: Gari Chengu Posted: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:49 am THE Minister of Finace has said that Zimbabwe's economy is set to grow at over eight percent. Largely thanks to a surge in agricultural production from beneficiaries of the Land Democratisation Programme. Agrarian reform is cultivating the rise of an indigenous agrarian middle class, capable of serving not only as the drive-chain of an agriculture-led economic recovery, but also as a regional beacon for the attainability of agrarian economic independence. The , Land Democratisation Programme is proving to be a resounding success on three major fronts: firstly, ownership and indigenisation; secondly increased exports and tobacco production and finally, serving as encouragement for swifter agrarian reform across southern Africa. Regarding ownership and indigenisation, land democratisation has been largely egalitarian and broad-based. Land previously owned by 4000 white commercial farmers is now shared between 300,000 families. Article continues below , Seventy per cent of the redistributed land has benefited 220,000 poor rural families and their urban counterparts, who on average have acquired 20 hectares of land. The remaining land has benefited 80,000 new small to medium-scale commercial farmers with an average of 100 hectares. A small number of large-scale commercial farmers remain, including both white and black farmers, but their land sizes have been greatly reduced to 700 hectares on average. This is much lower than the average of 2000 hectares held by the previous 4000 landowners


http://newzimsituation.com/land-reform-driving-economic-growth-on-the-zimbabwe-guardian-99904.htm

Wahalla
09-29-2010, 07:43 AM
there will be growth....They stabilised the currency by dollarisation.. they began to produce.. Previously they were not...There is a couple stories that I cannot give a link to or a U tube video of... where land that was distribuuuted to war veterans, has now been apropriated to a number of party apartitchicks.... And as for production... A minining company that I have a small investment in has began producing shiny metal.. Zimbabwaye is the place to invest in at the moment it seems...

Dr.Dudd
09-29-2010, 11:11 AM
The western economic powers will sabotage it.

Just wait and see.

They can't allow it yo be an example of the benefits of indigenous land ownership.

As I said then the only solution to perpetual poverty in the third world is indigenous ownership of the factors of production.
And to keep the profits reinvested in the economy.

franksterr
09-29-2010, 07:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The western economic powers will sabotage it.

Just wait and see.

They can't allow it yo be an example of the benefits of indigenous land ownership.

As I said then the only solution to perpetual poverty in the third world is indigenous ownership of the factors of production.
And to keep the profits reinvested in the economy. </div></div>

They will try and fail.

They have atready lost several rounds to Mugabe's Zimbabwe.

johnnycakes
09-29-2010, 11:44 PM
Want to read something totally depressing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Zimbabwe

Among other things, the Wikipedia article says that unemployment and poverty rates are both at 80% in Zimbabwe . HIV/AIDS is rampant.
Go read the areticle and just Google poverty in Zimbabwe .

I just can't believe the cheerful tone of the other posts.

franksterr
09-30-2010, 08:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Want to read something totally depressing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Zimbabwe</div></div>

Always take wikipedia info with a huge grain of salt, I know you know that....its open source info.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Among other things, the Wikipedia article says that unemployment and poverty rates are both at 80% in Zimbabwe . HIV/AIDS is rampant.</div></div>

HIV/AIDS in Afrika is a political issue for western media houses, meaning that what constitutes AIDS in Africa would not be considered AIDS in America, Canada or Europe. HIV does not cause AIDS and the test are scams.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go read the areticle and just Google poverty in Zimbabwe .

I just can't believe the cheerful tone of the other posts.
</div></div>

Poverty was much worse among black Zimbabweans before Mugabe
Zimbabwe
Zimbabwe is succeeding in its struggle with the west and it means AFRICKA IS AWAKENING

jah_yout
09-30-2010, 12:03 PM
it's amazing how different the stories are depending on the source

johnnycakes
09-30-2010, 01:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it's amazing how different the stories are depending on the source </div></div>

True true but the internet is right there for all to research. That sub-Saharan African nations are in dire economic straits cannot be denied based on the overwhelming evidence. That some of them may be making SMALL progress towards alleviating the worst human living conditions on Earth also cannot be denied but to think that these small improvements point toward a turnaround in any serious way is to deny the past failure and the impossibility of capitalism in underdeveloped countries to remedy the problems it causes.

johnnycakes
09-30-2010, 01:50 PM
. HIV/AIDS is rampant.[/quote]

HIV/AIDS in Afrika is a political issue for western media houses, meaning that what constitutes AIDS in Africa would not be considered AIDS in America, Canada or Europe. HIV does not cause AIDS and the test are scams.



I Googled this up and could find nothing that supports your contention Franksterr except possibly for Rand Paul's politically motivated and nonscientific nonsense.



http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/lecture/hiv13a.htm

jah_yout
09-30-2010, 05:37 PM
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zxHCW3zV0o4&amp;feature=related"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zxHCW3zV0o4&amp;feature=related" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

franksterr
09-30-2010, 06:17 PM
johnnycakes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
HIV/AIDS in Afrika is a political issue for western media houses, meaning that what constitutes AIDS in Africa would not be considered AIDS in America, Canada or Europe. HIV does not cause AIDS and the test are scams.




I Googled this up and could find nothing that supports your contention Franksterr except possibly for Rand Paul's politically motivated and nonscientific nonsense.



http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/lecture/hiv13a.htm </div></div>

AIDS in africa is a Myth created by Western politicians and perpetuated by greedy African politicians and big pharma. AIDS is being used to fullfill a eugenics agenda, to commit genocide against Afrikans with the use of drugs, family planning and selffulling propaganda....It has failed miserable,
Aids was supposed to kill 2billion people by the yr two thousand, due to its unreliable infectiousness they have begun using condoms and drugs to increase its infection rate.

Archie68
10-07-2010, 02:00 AM
Posted by Mugabe's regime? 8% is great from what base?

Africans can only blame the white man for so much. That was weak.

We see mental slavery at work here. And we see those bonded to this mental slavery.

franksterr
10-10-2010, 12:26 PM
Archie68

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Posted by Mugabe's regime? 8% is great from what base?</div></div>

It is an improvement, it is growth....which the enemies of Zimbabwe does not want to see.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Africans can only blame the white man for so much. That was weak.</div></div>

It not blame or weak when its the truth, its the realization of power.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We see mental slavery at work here. And we see those bonded to this mental slavery. </div></div>

I see one who thinks he is free, whilst his mind is chained to racist propaganda

Archie68
10-13-2010, 02:26 AM
want proofPropaganda? Frank, you are writing about the wrong person. I am alright with that.

So, you claim the people of Zimbabwe prosper? Do you claim they have prospered in the past ten years? Where was the white man?

As a man, I ask you, have the people prospered? So keep the anti-propaganda thing going. Answer the real issues.

I have mentioned the &quot;chest beating negroes&quot; before. I refer to the hard core black man that is not in the fight himself or have any idea what the fight is. Are you one of those? I was once.

Do you know that black people in South Africa murder people from Zimbabwe?

Propaganda? Do you want proof? I do not laugh at you, I cry.

People like you still look to the white man. I do not pity you, I pity us. People like you are a burden with no positive potential. Perhaps, your child will be free.

franksterr
10-13-2010, 10:29 AM
Archie68

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">want proofPropaganda? Frank, you are writing about the wrong person. I am alright with that.</div></div>

Who is the wrong person? Mugabe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, you claim the people of Zimbabwe prosper? Do you claim they have prospered in the past ten years? Where was the white man?</div></div>

No they did not prosper, the white man had sanctions imposed for most if not all of the last ten yrs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a man, I ask you, have the people prospered? So keep the anti-propaganda thing going. Answer the real issues. </div></div>

They are doing better than they ever did under white rule

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have mentioned the &quot;chest beating negroes&quot; before. I refer to the hard core black man that is not in the fight himself or have any idea what the fight is. Are you one of those? I was once. </div></div>

We all have our roles, some of us will have to fight, some to carry water or signs, others to spread the news while others just to tell their neighbors.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you know that black people in South Africa murder people from Zimbabwe? </div></div>
Yes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Propaganda? Do you want proof? I do not laugh at you, I cry.

People like you still look to the white man. I do not pity you, I pity us. People like you are a burden with no positive potential. Perhaps, your child will be free. </div></div>

keep you tears and pity I look to Mugabe's leadership of Zimbabwe, when last I check he was a blackman

Archie68
10-16-2010, 02:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">keep you tears and pity I look to Mugabe's leadership of Zimbabwe, when last I check he was a blackman </div></div>

Keep on believing your man if it make you feel good. Keep on believing in these men, if it make you feel good.

I do not believe in men or a man. I will advocate a person based on their position and their actions. Mugabe has failed both my standards. Hunger is not based on race.

So, you keep you &quot;man&quot; worship and belief going. I hope it keeps you going as the country suffers and you blame the distant White man.

franksterr
10-17-2010, 08:47 PM
Archie68

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep on believing your man if it make you feel good. Keep on believing in these men, if it make you feel good. </div></div>

It does and I will, though you should know it is not a matter of belief.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not believe in men or a man. I will advocate a person based on their position and their actions. Mugabe has failed both my standards. Hunger is not based on race.</div></div>
Mugabe is the President of Zimbabwe and his past and present actions speaks well of his intentions and goals.
Can you say the same about those to whom you are listening or advocating?

Which of your standards have Mugabe failed?
Hunger???? what about it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, you keep you &quot;man&quot; worship and belief going. I hope it keeps you going as the country suffers and you blame the distant White man.
</div></div>

Is or was Jesus a man? http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

The country was in a worse situation than it is now.
And the &quot;distant white man&quot; is the ones responsible for the past injustices and the present sanctions. Hence it is true and accurate to lay the &quot;blame&quot; where it belongs, at the behest of the malicious actions and doings of the white man.

Archie68
10-20-2010, 02:38 AM
You say: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> his past and present actions speaks well of his intentions and goals.</div></div>

I say he has failed and he oppresses his people. You say,&quot;present actions speak well of his intentions and goals&quot;?

His oppression speaks well of his intention and goals? His results speaks well of his intention and goals?

Keep on blaming that white man. Perhaps he is going to show up and fix everything. Perhaps blaming everything on the past will fix something. Some of us never left the plantation. All tough but still a slave.

Stay on your plantation blaming massa. Wait on the white man to undo his damage...you plan?

We need to fix for ourselves because no one else will. Some day, some of us will get the point.

franksterr
10-22-2010, 05:01 PM
Archie68

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say he has failed and he oppresses his people. You say,&quot;present actions speak well of his intentions and goals&quot;?</div></div>

What you wanted Zimbabwe to remain under white rule?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">His oppression speaks well of his intention and goals? His results speaks well of his intention and goals? </div></div>

OPPRESSION!?!?........Pure unadulterated propaganda.
Black Zimbabweans have never had it better since the coming of the white man, that is undeniable.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep on blaming that white man. Perhaps he is going to show up and fix everything. Perhaps blaming everything on the past will fix something. Some of us never left the plantation. All tough but still a slave. </div></div>

The truth is the truth, I will not hold back even if it pains you. The whites who lived and ruled in Zimbabwe were and mostly likely would like to still be OPPRESSORS
If you dont know your past then you are subject to repeat it.
We own the plantation, why would we want to leave now??
because I speak the truth I may appear tough but really I am Not tough, slave only to Truth.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stay on your plantation blaming massa. Wait on the white man to undo his damage...you plan?</div></div>
I wait on no man, I work and support those who are doing something.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">We need to fix for ourselves </span>because no one else will. Some day, some of us will get the point. </div></div>

There is nothing wrong with me or The Zimbabweans I support, cant speak for you though you are still the lap dog of those telling lies on the Black Afrikan revolution in Zimbabwe.

So you need &quot;fixing&quot; who is going to &quot;fix&quot; you? What do you think is wrong with you?
From where I sit it seems you are Believing too much of the info provided by Western media, meant to rob you of your ability for independent thought - in short you have become their sycophant, lacky or bootlicker.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't Let Them Mold Your Mind, They Want To Control Mankind
Seems Like Their Only Intention Is To Exploit The Earth,
And You Trust In Their Deceit, Your Mind Causes Your Defeat,
And So You Become An Invention To Distort This Earth

Propoganda And Lies, Is A Plague In Our Lives
How Much More Victimized, Before We Realize </div></div>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAX2qh7xkZM

Archie68
10-23-2010, 03:01 AM
SIr, keep on believing what ever you are believing. One day, the white man will show up and undo what he did and provide justice. Stay tough and keep on fighting!!!!! http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/laugh.gif

franksterr
10-23-2010, 03:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SIr, keep on believing what ever you are believing. One day, the white man will show up and undo what he did and provide justice. Stay tough and keep on fighting!!!!! http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/laugh.gif </div></div>

Thats stupid...Mugabe is who I look to, he never waited on the whiteman, to undo or provide justice so why would I.

A Luta Continua....

Now it becomes obvious, You want the return to white rule in Zimbabwe, thats why you are spreading their vile lies. Indeed it is you who are waiting on them.

Dr.Dudd
10-23-2010, 11:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SIr, keep on believing what ever you are believing. One day, the white man will show up and undo what he did and provide justice. Stay tough and keep on fighting!!!!! http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/laugh.gif </div></div>
This post make absolutely no sense.
What should I expect anyway?
After all it is Archie....... or I should say Mr Bunker.
You Sir are entertaining if nothing else.
It is a pity it turn up in the most inappropriate topics

jah_yout
10-23-2010, 01:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SIr, keep on believing what ever you are believing. One day, the white man will show up and undo what he did and provide justice. Stay tough and keep on fighting!!!!! http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/laugh.gif </div></div>


what kind of $hit is this?? http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

very strange

Archie68
10-29-2010, 01:45 AM
There is a type of black person that is angry and bitter at what the white man did. This person frames everything based on colonialism. They say: those that did wrong, they must undo the wrong they have done!!!!! Thus the mess in Africa, created by whites and there colonial desires, should be fixed by them.

That is their point. It makes simple sense.

Sorry, That is not how it works.

I cannot convince anyone that we need to do the fixing ourselves and no one will come and save us from the mess they made.

Blaming the white man or waiting for them to deliver justice to us is hopeless. So, let Mugabe blame the white man. Let them all. How does that that solve anything?

Makes no sense? Please... I just accepted that some black will NEVER take on the massive burden of building our own people.

I AM NOT HAPPY ABOUT THAT. BUT, THESE PEOPLE WILL NEVER CHANGE. THEY WILL ALWAYS LOOK TO THE WHITE MAN FOR ANSWERS. I MUST ACCEPT IT.

I will not fight their needs. Let the dream on and hope in vain.

SOME BLACK PEOPLE AS JUST NOT READY FOR THE TASK. I wish them well and happiness. Life is short; be happy.

franksterr
10-29-2010, 02:29 PM
Archie68

If you are referring to me, here is my response.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a type of black person that is angry and bitter at what the white man did. </div></div>
I am not angry or bitter at what the white man did, I am angry at what he is DOING. Neither am I bitter because of what he did, what I seek is justice in that regard.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This person frames everything based on colonialism. They say: those that did wrong, they must undo the wrong they have done!!!!! Thus the mess in Africa, created by whites and there colonial desires, should be fixed by them.</div></div>

Colonialism is our past, we are the sum total of all that has happened before, the experience we are having today is as a direct result of what happen in our past. The events and circumstances that led up to our colonialization may still be in play today. History helps us to recognize it and how best to deal with it.
It is silly to think that those who colonized us, will also free you us.
Mugabe waited on no white man to undo anything in Zimbabwe.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is their point. It makes simple sense.

Sorry, That is not how it works.

I cannot convince anyone that we need to do the fixing ourselves and no one will come and save us from the mess they made.</div></div>

You are simply. If you do not realize that Mugabe is doing it with his fellow Zimbabweans, neither he or his fellow Zimbabweans are white.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blaming the white man or waiting for them to deliver justice to us is hopeless. So, let Mugabe blame the white man. Let them all. How does that that solve anything?</div></div>
You truly simply, Mugabe is letting you know who the enemy is..
You are the only one waiting on the white man.
It solves the most crucial question of all - who the enemy is

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Makes no sense? Please... I just accepted that some black will NEVER take on the massive burden of building our own people. </div></div>

Are you blind, Mugabe has done and is doing just that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I AM NOT HAPPY ABOUT THAT. BUT, THESE PEOPLE WILL NEVER CHANGE. <span style="text-decoration: line-through">THEY</span> <span style="font-weight: bold"> (I) WILL ALWAYS LOOK TO THE WHITE MAN FOR ANSWERS.</span> I MUST ACCEPT IT.</div></div>
Confession is good for the soul

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will not fight their needs. Let the dream on and hope in vain.</div></div>

It is no longer a dream, as the land and nation of Zimbabwe is ruled by blacks, neither is their hope in vain as the farms are being taken back.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SOME BLACK PEOPLE AS JUST NOT READY FOR THE TASK. I wish them well and happiness. Life is short; be happy. </div></div>

You may not be ready but Mugabe and Zimbabweans have already accomplish much of the task.

Archie68
10-31-2010, 03:34 AM
Good for you!!!! How are the people of Zimbabwe?

By the way: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mugabe and Zimbabweans have already accomplish much of the task. </div></div>

DO you mean driving the population into starvation?

As I said, there is a breed of black person. We see it here;the type that would drive us off a cliff.

Keep on writing sir. Prove my point for me. Keep on saying Mugabe's regime is actually moving his counbtry forward.

Please, keep on doing what you do. There are positive examples and there are negative examples.

Dr.Dudd
10-31-2010, 12:28 PM
You are a piece of work.
You should be respected for learning to read as aN adult.

You would do with reading the history of much of What you write about.
Zimbabwe only experience frredom from apartheid in the 80's.
It's former name was Rhodesia.
the population suffered centuries of slavery under the Europeans.
This was followed by decades of gorilla warfare for the right to to own their voucher try.
They lived I. A state of starvation all this time.
A fee more decades in the process of gaining control of their lands.
They will make mistakes.
They will be conned by the colonists but They just have to learn.
this because there are no schools to learn How to developed an independent country.
They just have to learn by their own tryall And errors. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good for you!!!! How are the people of Zimbabwe?

By the way: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mugabe and Zimbabweans have already accomplish much of the task. </div></div>

DO you mean driving the population into starvation?

As I said, there is a breed of black person. We see it here;the type that would drive us off a cliff.

Keep on writing sir. Prove my point for me. Keep on saying Mugabe's regime is actually moving his counbtry forward.

Please, keep on doing what you do. There are positive examples and there are negative examples. </div></div>

franksterr
10-31-2010, 07:57 PM
Archie68

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good for you!!!!</div></div>

YES!!!! and It is good for the people of Zimbabwe as well.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are the people of Zimbabwe?</div></div>

much better than before independence.

By the way: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mugabe and Zimbabweans have already accomplish much of the task. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DO you mean driving the population into starvation?</div></div>

Propaganda.....what or where is your source?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I said, there is a breed of black person. We see it here;the type that would drive us off a cliff. </div></div>

Looking in the mirror aren't you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep on writing sir. Prove my point for me. Keep on saying Mugabe's regime is actually moving his counbtry forward.</div></div>

I do not have to....history has

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please, keep on doing what you do. There are positive examples and there are negative examples. </div></div>

Positive example Mugabe, negative example you.

Archie68
11-04-2010, 01:38 AM
OK http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/grin.gif All that analysis. Zimbabwe starves and suffer. You say that is moving foward.

It works for you and that is what you want. Good for you.

franksterr
11-10-2010, 10:08 AM
Archie68

I know it pains you that Mugabe is meeting with such success......hush!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/grin.gif All that analysis. Zimbabwe starves and suffer. You say that is moving foward.</div></div>

People suffer in every country, No one starves in Zimbabwe, beyond what happens in every other country.....Yes it is forward move as the people are better off than before Mugabe.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It works for you and that is what you want. Good for you. </div></div>

It works for me and countless millions of Zimbabweans and that is good for us all

johnnycakes
11-10-2010, 03:08 PM
And of course you both are dancing around the elephant in the room which is the neo-colonial and capitalist economies which are crushing and killing the people of sub-Saharan Africa.

It does not matter if Zimbabwe has a black or white president. If your LIMITED wealth is concentrated in the pockets of a handful of wealthy and other resource wealth is expropriated by globalized corporations, you cannot possibly reform that sort of have and have-not society to the point that you eliminate extreme poverty and human deprivation.

A 5% growth rate might be fine for a developed nation but for an extremely poor underdeveloped nation it is a drop in the ocean of need.

Even that slight improvement in Zimbabwe's economy does not reach all levels of the society as that is not how capitalism works. The created wealth goes largely to the already wealthy.

You cannot seriously talk about reform or radical change in Africa/ Zimbabwe without getting rid of neo-liberal capitalism.

Blaming the neo-colonialist exploiters is fine but as long as you use capitalism to operate a nation's economy you will have people selling national resources and treasures right out from under your feet to make themselves a dollar.

You cannot cure the corruption that is an integral part of any society in which the almighty dollar is God.

Neither can you have much democracy in any country where you are ruled by the unelected dictatorship of the dollar.

Why cannot the people of Zimbabwe live as well as the Cubans?

franksterr
11-10-2010, 05:56 PM
johnnycakes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And of course you both are dancing around the elephant in the room which is the neo-colonial and capitalist economies which are crushing and killing the people of sub-Saharan Africa.</div></div>

Not around it, like China today we are dancing with the elephant.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It does not matter if Zimbabwe has a black or white president. If your LIMITED wealth is concentrated in the pockets of a handful of wealthy and other resource wealth is expropriated by globalized corporations, you cannot possibly reform that sort of have and have-not society to the point that you eliminate extreme poverty and human deprivation.</div></div>
Maybe to you it does not matter, but the people of Zimbabwe fought so that an indigenous Zimbabwean(African) would be there leader. The land reform and the indigenization of wealth is an attempt to rectify the concentration of wealth.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 5% growth rate might be fine for a developed nation but for an extremely poor underdeveloped nation it is a drop in the ocean of need.</div></div>

Given the the powers arrayed against Zimbabwe vis a vis the present sanctions and recent attempts at destabilization it is an improvement and a step in the right direction.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even that slight improvement in Zimbabwe's economy does not reach all levels of the society as that is not how capitalism works. The created wealth goes largely to the already wealthy.</div></div>
Well this is not the case in Zimbabwe, as the wealthy are usually white and they are fleeing Zimbabwe. Once poor blacks are now raising up to replace them.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You cannot seriously talk about reform or radical change in Africa/ Zimbabwe without getting rid of neo-liberal capitalism.

Blaming the neo-colonialist exploiters is fine but as long as you use capitalism to operate a nation's economy you will have people selling national resources and treasures right out from under your feet to make themselves a dollar.</div></div>

A Journey of a thousand miles starts with one step in the direction of your hopes dreams and destination.
In Zimbabwe they have just accomplish land reform, and they are now moving onto wealth indigenization. They are going good so far.







<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You cannot cure the corruption that is an integral part of any society in which the almighty dollar is God.</div></div>

Do you know a country where there is no corruption?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neither can you have much democracy in any country where you are ruled by the unelected dictatorship of the dollar.</div></div>

If that was the case whites would still be the political leaders of Zimbabwe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why cannot the people of Zimbabwe live as well as the Cubans? </div></div>

Because they are not Cubans

johnnycakes
11-10-2010, 06:59 PM
&quot;The land reform and the indigenization of wealth is an attempt to rectify the concentration of wealth.&quot;


Sorry, but if Zimbabwe retains a capitalist economy there will be no rectification of anything. Capitalism is not reformable and it is especially not workable in underdeveloped countries. Land reform is a big step but it is only one step and not the solution to poverty, Indigenization of wealth, I assume, means somehow putting the wealth of the country in the hands of the masses instead of just in the hands of the wealthy and the corporations, How is this possible in Zimbabwe. How can it be done to the point where it makes a serious difference in the lives of desperate people?


C'mon, don't kid yourself. Capitalism cannot and does not work in poor countries. Just how much evidence do you want or need to tell you that.

Sub-Saharan Africa has poverty rates that can get up to 80% in a given country and even the best economies have poverty and deprivation rates that are inhumane.

The answer is democracy.


How do you feel about democracy? A government of, by and for all the people?
A society where the governments do what the electorate wants.

Your answer has to take into account that: 1) multi-party democracies are not democracies in that the parties nominate the candidates and not the people.

2) Capitalism is the unelected dictatorship of the dollar. It buys the politicians , it sways public opinion with expensive ads on TV, radio. It is the reason we go to war.


oeple

franksterr
11-12-2010, 05:09 PM
&quot;The land reform and the indigenization of wealth is an attempt to rectify the concentration of wealth.&quot;

The problem with most countries regardless of the political or economic system they employ, is that it makes it easier for people in power to do wrong and difficult for them to do right. When you find a leader willing to do right, the system cannot stop him or her only the people can.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sorry, but if Zimbabwe retains a capitalist economy there will be no rectification of anything. Capitalism is not reformable and it is especially not workable in underdeveloped countries. Land reform is a big step but it is only one step and not the solution to poverty, Indigenization of wealth, I assume, means somehow putting the wealth of the country in the hands of the masses instead of just in the hands of the wealthy and the corporations, How is this possible in Zimbabwe. How can it be done to the point where it makes a serious difference in the lives of desperate people?</div></div>

As you see Mugabe did it with Land, and if he lives will do it with the nations bounty – wealth.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">C'mon, don't kid yourself. Capitalism cannot and does not work in poor countries. Just how much evidence do you want or need to tell you that.</div></div>

Who would have thought that Land Reform on the scale that it has been accomplished in Zimbabwe could have been done in a capitalist country….Give Zimbabwe a chance lets wait and see, they are making all the rights moves.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sub-Saharan Africa has poverty rates that can get up to 80% in a given country and even the best economies have poverty and deprivation rates that are inhumane.</div></div>
The poverty in Africa is a direct result of Racism.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The answer is democracy.</div></div>
Democracy did not defeat slavery, peonage or grant civil and human rights.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you feel about democracy? A government of, by and for all the people?
A society where the governments do what the electorate wants.</div></div>
Sounds Good.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your answer has to take into account that: 1) multi-party democracies are not democracies in that the parties nominate the candidates and not the people.

2) Capitalism is the unelected dictatorship of the dollar. It buys the politicians , it sways public opinion with expensive ads on TV, radio. It is the reason we go to war.</div></div>

Neither capitalism or democracy will guarantee our freedoms or lack thereof, They are only tools and they are as bad or good as the people using them.

johnnycakes
11-13-2010, 09:07 AM
&quot;Neither capitalism or democracy will guarantee our freedoms or lack thereof, They are only tools and they are as bad or good as the people using them.'


Capitalism is totalitarianism. It is run from the top down. It is the antithesis of democracy.
It denies freedom.
Democracy literally means rule by the people.
Unless you believe that people want not to be free then how can you deny that democracy means freedom.
Totalitarianism denies freedoms and democracy guarantees them.
Neither Zimbabwe nor the United States nor Jamaica is a democracy nor even representative democracies.
They are run from the top down.



As for racism being the cause of poverty, there are at least 50 million poor people in the United States and they are of all races. Blacks have a disproportionately higher poverty rate because of racism but racism only adds people to the list of poor that is already huge under capitalism, the root cause.

In a democratic economy, there is no rich-poor chasm and as we see in Cuba the living standard afforded by a more egalitarian economic system enables all people to have the necessities for a decent life. In Cuba, the blacks who were the poorest actually benefited the most from institution of socialism and the elimination of capitalism and capitalist enabled racism.


.And then just what do YOU mean by &quot;freedom&quot;?
Freedom from want?
Freedom from illiteracy?
Freedom from disease?
or is Freedom just another word for &quot;nothing left to lose&quot;.


&quot;As you see Mugabe did it with Land, and if he lives will do it with the nations bounty – wealth.&quot;


Yeah, sure, and if my aunt had testicles, she'd be my uncle.

Mugabe will redistribute the wealth from the richest to the poorest when rattlesnakes do pushups. Even were he of a mind to do that, the wealthy in the country would have him killed if he were to try it.
It has never been done in any poor Third World capitalist country because it would take a revolution to do so and a socialist revolution is the only kind that redistributes the wealth.

johnnycakes
11-14-2010, 08:45 AM
Here is a not-so-pro-Mugabe analysis on Zimbabwe's situation from an article reprinted at ZNET.

Will Zimbabwe Again Regress?
By Patrick Bond

Sunday, November 14, 2010
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If leaders of a little African country stand up with confidence to imperialist aggression, especially from the US and Britain, that would ordinarily strike any fair observer as extremely compelling, especially when the nightmare of racist colonialism is still be to exorcised and when whites hold a disproportionate share of economic power, and when state rulers appear serious about changing those factors.

But that country needs a second glance. What may seem to some a progressive and brave government is upon closer examination a tyranny whose leader repeatedly acts against grassroots and shopfloor social solidarity, and notwithstanding rhetoric about land redistribution, is ultimately very hostile to its own society’s poor and working people, women, youth, elderly and ill.

‘Progress in Zimbabwe’ was the title of a four-day Bulawayo conference last week, gathering mainly academics but also leading civil society strategists. It was organised by University of Johannesburg political economist David Moore and by Showers Mawowa of the University of KwaZulu-Natal (UKZN) School of Development Studies and Zimbabwe Coalition on Debt and Development.

Said Moore, “For many analysts, the end of progress is signified in the political projects of Robert Mugabe and Zanu(PF) – not to mention the Government of National Unity”. It’s been two years since South Africa’s outgoing president Thabo Mbeki negotiated dysfunctional power-sharing between Mugabe’s junta and Morgan Tsvangirai’s Movement for Democratic Change (MDC).

Just before the deal took effect in early 2009, the local currency collapsed entirely, and is no longer used. On the upside, that move ended hyperinflation and empty shop shelves. The tiny elite is happier, as is the World Bank (not yet lending, but carefully looking over the state’s shoulder). Yet without any ability to earn hard currency, what’s a peasant or the unemployed (90 percent of the workforce) to do?

A related problem: monetary policy is now set in Washington and Pretoria, since the US$ and South African Rand are now Zimbabwe’s core currencies. The Reserve Bank cannot stimulate the sickly economy, because its governor, Gideon Gono, gave Zimbabwe ‘monetary gonorrhea’, a corrupting disease transmitted from his overworked printing press to the economy as a whole.

A $2 billion bill for Gono’s leftover local debt is being negotiated, and another $5+ billion in foreign debt remains unpayable. Progressives writing the National People’s Convention Charter in February 2008 demanded a debt audit before any World Bank and IMF loans are serviced, and as happened similarly in Ecuador in December 2008, “the right of the people of Zimbabwe to refuse repayment of any odious debt accrued by a dictatorial government.”

Politically, progress against Mugabe’s dictatorship is terribly fragile, as the army is now being deployed in many hotly-contested peri-urban and rural areas. Since paramilitary violence forced Tsvangirai to pull out of the mid-2008 run-off presidential election (after winning the first round – but, claimed Mugabe’s vote-counters, with less than 50%), a constitutional rewrite outreach process has provided space for 4000 meetings in recent weeks.

Many were marred by intimidation. Worse, a mid-2011 election announced by Mugabe promises a return to bad habits: outright violence, including murder, ending in poll thievery. The most likely scenario, according to leading commentator John Makumbe? “The MDC will win and Zanu(PF) will again refuse to concede power”. So back they will go into the cul-de-sac of renewed power-sharing talks.

Hence the conference was devoted mainly to recording regress not progress, given Zimbabwe’s deep plunge. History needed reviewing, for after all, the most banal measure of progress, that of the economics profession, is per person Gross Domestic Product (GDP), and the point it began declining may surprise.

Per capita GDP didn’t begin its slide in February 2000 when President Robert Mugabe lost his first election (a constitutional referendum) and unleashed the war veterans on white farmers. Nor was it on November 1997’s Black Friday, when the Zimbabwe dollar lost 74% of its value in four hours, a world record. Nor was it when the Washington-sponsored structural adjustment program began in 1991, nor when Independence in 1980 meant the small economy’s rearticulation with hostile global capitalism after fifteen years of sanctions.

If one thinks of progress in this conventional way, as GDP per person, then Zimbabwe began shrinking in 1974, as indeed was the case in most of Africa, as the world slowdown hit the poorest continent hardest, at a time most African leaders had succumbed to neocolonialism. In Zimbabwe, overproduction of luxury goods, machinery and steel for a limited market left the economy with huge excess capacity at a time of shrinking confidence in Ian Smith’s racist Rhodesian Front regime. After liberation was won in 1980, the economy then recovered some of the lost ground in a growth spurt from 1984 to 1990.

Income in 1990 was much better distributed then than under Smith’s white rule - or than under Mugabe’s kleptocracy after it became avaricious in the mid-1990s. A small black middle class had emerged mainly through the expansion of Zimbabwe’s civil service, though the World Bank successfully insisted that it shrink by 25% during the 1990s.

Sorting out the politico-ideological confusion in historical context requires, according to Sheffield-based Zimbabwean Ian Phimister, a ‘distinct paradigm of radical historiography’. But Muchaparara Musemwa lamented that their discipline still lacks cohesion and purpose. Phimister recommended the new book Becoming Zimbabwe – featuring work by Alois Mlambo, Brian Raftopoulos and younger historians – which treats contemporary degeneration in historical context.

By all accounts, a central challenge in an era of Mugabe’s state-sponsored ‘Patriotic History’ – a mirror image of Rhodesia’s racist settler history – is recovery of the liberation tradition from damage done even before Independence in 1980, a task aided by the coming publication of Wilf Mhanda’s autobiography. Mhanda’s leadership of the Zimbabwe People’s Army offered an alternative liberatory trajectory, one Mugabe violently suppressed two years before signing the Lancaster House compromise deal that maintained the repressive state and white-biased property relations entirely intact.

Mugabe’s overarching need, it seems, is control of the telling of history - as a way to remind his subjects there was once a time when Zanu(PF) was indeed a popular force, like fish swimming in the sea of the people. Regurgitation of that memory is what motivates the ‘Talk Left, Walk Right’ project of crony nationalist capitalism, which Mugabe and so many other post-colonial despots adopted, as Frantz Fanon predicted in his 1961 book The Wretched of the Earth.

Today the main legacy of this struggle is ‘securocrat’ control of the state. Remarked Joshua Mpofu, “Talking about political parties is like chewing gravel. Military culture never died, and a lot of public institutions are headed by brigadiers and generals.”

Another memory is of a time when indigenous Zimbabweans controlled their land. According to Blessing Karumbidza, whose recent UKZN doctorate describes post-Independence land experiences, there will be “a truly restructured and dynamic farming sector IF and only if the support mechanisms and institutional regimes necessary for land and agricultural rationalization are put in place.”

That’s not happening, insists University of Zimbabwe (UZ) geographer Esther Chigumira: “Bifurcated land ownership continues, not by race but by class, favouring elites who are politically connected.” Those nationalists, recalled former war veteran and now UZ sociologist Wilbert Sadomba, emerged from internecine liberation movement feuds, and “hijacked that revolution, in connivance with international capital. We war vets are opposed to both Zanu(PF) elites and MDC elites. We see neither being able to take the country forward.”

Added leading liberation-era intellectual Ibbo Mandaza, “There was a Zanu(PF) that we were part of, the liberation movement, and then there was Mugabe’s Zanu(PF), which is very different. Mugabe is essentially rightwing, notwithstanding the anti-imperialist rhetoric.” As for his own role, Mandaza confessed, “We helped in many respects dress up an essentially rightwing regime in leftist clothing.”

Raftopoulos agreed: “This discourse threw off many African scholars, most importantly in the Mamdani debate” – referring to the great Ugandan political scientist Mahmood Mamdani’s 2008 London Review of Books defense of Mugabe. The two most prominent scholars who are supportive of land redistribution, Mamdani and Sam Moyo, were invited but could not attend. In their place, Ben Cousins from the University of the Western Cape promoted the post-2000 land reform’s “changing structures of ownership and new agrarian structure,” concluding, “The positives probably outweigh the negatives.”

In the main A1 land programme, he said, “About a third of the new farmers are succeeding, a third getting by, and a third getting out.” The negatives in Cousins’ list include “the collapse of Large Scale Commercial Farms which contributed to wide-scale economic decline; the motor force of land reform was the Zanu(PF) power grab; the decline of the rule of law; violence.” Added Zimbabwean human rights advocate Elinor Sisulu, “food security, environment, HIV-AIDS, and the gender and class dimensions.”

No matter how Zimbabwe needed to end white domination of good farms before 2000, an overall judgment on the land invasions (which sporadically continue because 10 percent of 4000 white farmers hung on by hook or by crook), will wait long-term evidence. The spate of new research by those associated with Moyo and Cousins does show a few selective sites of success, especially in Masvingo Province near the ancient Great Zimbabwe empire’s capital, but critics argue this is not a typical region.

But opposition policies came in for equally harsh critique. “In the 1990s the motivation for the MDC was the struggle for social and economic justice – and that’s the crucial unique character of the MDC’s origins,” said Hopewell Gumbo of the Zimbabwe Coalition on Debt and Development. “But the trend to neoliberalism within the MDC means we will not see progress. We need to look for new alliances and new formations. “

But the terrain is uneven, for Harare-based urban civic organizer Mike Davies pointed out the profusion of petit-bourgeois suit-and-tie professionals amongst the capital’s NGO cadre: “They acquire a self-preserving aspect perhaps more concerned with continuation than function. They became more remote from their members, even elitist, losing their accountability, more concerned with meeting donor aspirations and requirements than serving the needs of their members.”

According to Davies, “opportunistic elements make every effort to preserve their positions, often at some cost to their member organisations and undermining their stated goals. In my opinion, we failed to identify and contain these elements as well as the vehicles that carry them. As a result, the super-NGOs captured the voices of civics and domesticated them for the consumption of an increasingly externalised audience of international donors and Zimbabweans in the diaspora.”

How, then, can progress emerge against both a sell-out to the Washington Consensus (by either or both of the leading parties) and Mugabe’s fake populist language and violence-prone delivery, short of awaiting his death – but then inevitably a new Zanu(PF) power struggle (between the Mujuru and Mnangagwa factions) that could be even more disruptive?

An answer came from the leading trade unionist present, Kumbirai Kudenga: “In terms of mass action, we need people without fear. If you’re not used to going to the ground, it’s hard. Mass action is for people who are used to the ground.”

She even provided a new vehicle: “We have a Democratic United Front for the workers, especially for mass action. What we need is support. Can you take down our email: [email protected] That is if you are serious, we are there to act.”

For the rest of us, according to Raftopoulos, a renewed “international labour solidarity discourse is one of the best antidotes to Mugabe’s rhetoric”, especially the ‘exemplary solidarity’ shown in April 2008 when in Durban, transport workers refused to unload three million bullets destined for Mugabe’s army from the Chinese ship An Yue Jiang.

Even if the conference was way too top-heavy with talking heads and NGOers, all agreed that a new surge of such solidarity will be needed next year, when regress again trumps progress in Zimbabwe.


(Patrick Bond is on sabbatical from the UKZN Centre for Civil Society, based at UCal-Berkeley Department of Geography. His books include Uneven Zimbabwe and Zimbabwe’s Plunge.)

franksterr
11-15-2010, 01:00 PM
JC

Neither capitalism or democracy will guarantee our freedoms or lack thereof, They are only tools and they are as bad or good as the people using them.'


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Capitalism is totalitarianism. It is run from the top down. It is the antithesis of democracy.
It denies freedom.
Democracy literally means rule by the people.
Unless you believe that people want not to be free then how can you deny that democracy means freedom.
Totalitarianism denies freedoms and democracy guarantees them.
Neither Zimbabwe nor the United States nor Jamaica is a democracy nor even representative democracies.
They are run from the top down.</div></div>

Name a democracy?



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for racism being the cause of poverty, there are at least 50 million poor people in the United States and they are of all races. Blacks have a disproportionately higher poverty rate because of racism but racism only adds people to the list of poor that is already huge under capitalism, the root cause.</div></div>

That’s not what I said, “I said the poverty in Africa is a direct result of racism” please keep it honest and try not re-interpreting my words.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a democratic economy, there is no rich-poor chasm and as we see in Cuba the living standard afforded by a more egalitarian economic system enables all people to have the necessities for a decent life. In Cuba, the blacks who were the poorest actually benefited the most from institution of socialism and the elimination of capitalism and capitalist enabled racism.</div></div>

So everybody in Cuba lives like Fidel and Raul?
I will hazard a guess that party apparatchiks tend to get more social services and have more access to influence and power thereby maintaining a higher standard of living than the vast majority of Cubans?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.And then just what do YOU mean by &quot;freedom&quot;?
Freedom from want?
Freedom from illiteracy?
Freedom from disease?
or is Freedom just another word for &quot;nothing left to lose&quot;.</div></div>
All of the above
Freedom to travel if you so desire and have the money to afford it


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;As you see Mugabe did it with Land, and if he lives will do it with the nations bounty – wealth.&quot;


Yeah, sure, and if my aunt had testicles, she'd be my uncle.</div></div>
I guess she would.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Mugabe will redistribute the wealth from the richest to the poorest when rattlesnakes do pushups. Even were he of a mind to do that, the wealthy in the country would have him killed if he were to try it.
It has never been done in any poor Third World capitalist country because it would take a revolution to do so and a socialist revolution is the only kind that redistributes the wealth.</div></div>

Mugabe and ZANU-pf did it with land and people thought the same, lets wait and see.

franksterr
11-15-2010, 02:28 PM
Understand that at this time to oppose Mugabe is to pave the way for the MDC and Morgan Tsvangirai.... a party and its leader that has admitted its loyalty to white racist colonialist views and agenda.
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=GVAkVyuS8pQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8YLsOwgy5o&amp;NR=1
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=23V0we85O6c&amp;feature=related
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=SZN0fAARoy0&amp;feature=related

johnnycakes
11-15-2010, 05:42 PM
F:
Name a democracy.

J: There are no direct democracies in the world only representative democracies most of which have been corrupted so that the elected representatives who have been nominated, not by the people, but by the political parties serve the desires of both the political parties and the status quo they represent.
Cuba is the only representative democracy I know of where the people themselves nominate the candidates from amongst their voting district members.

Democracy means one thing and one thing only and that is rule by the people and not by political parties.





F:
That’s not what I said, “I said the poverty in Africa is a direct result of racism” please keep it honest and try not re-interpreting my words.

J: Okay, so if Africa is now black ruled why doesn't the poverty due to racism disappear? The reason is that there are black elites, black rich people who have a disproportionate amount of money and the rest of the people have very little.
That accumulation of money at the top is what capitalism is all about. Keeping blacks poor because they're black is racism. Keeping people poor because the economy is based on a have and have-not principle is what is happening and that is capitalism at work.



F:
So everybody in Cuba lives like Fidel and Raul?
I will hazard a guess that party apparatchiks tend to get more social services and have more access to influence and power thereby maintaining a higher standard of living than the vast majority of Cubans?

J: When Fidel was convalescing from his abdominal surgery the newspaper showed his apartment/home and it was nothing special. Better than the average Cuban but no gold plated anything and no ostentatious show of wealth. It would be what the Cubans , who love Fidel would want him to have.
You seem to be conflating the PCC ( Cuban Communist Party) with the old corrupt Stalinist regimes that have gone away.
I have read that when you join the PCC you wind up doing your regular job and also have to put in long hours of volunteer work. It's what people who are dedicated to advancing the revolution do much like the old cane-cutter brigades back in the 70's.
It's mostly work and little privilege. That's why only about 15% of Cubans are members of the PCC. It is not too dissimilar to people in the U.S. who don't get involved in government because they don't have the time, talent or inclination but at 15% Cubans definitely show that they are interested in working extra to improve the country.
There is bound to be some corruption in the country given the shortages but I read everything I see on Cuba and I have only heard about a corruption problem in the general population and have never heard about party members being either corrupt or privileged.
Think about it, when Fidel announced HIS land reform and large estates were taken and broken up and given to landless people, Fidel made sure that his family home was the FIRST one to be taken in order to provide a good example.
A man who thinks like that does not seek palaces nor privilege and in fact rejects those things.
Che Guevara was as important as you could get in post-revolutionary Cuba and he turned down fancy housing. He said as long as there are poor with poor housing he would live in poor housing as would a principled socialist and revolutionary.

I get the feeling that most of us have lived so long in countries with corrupt politicians that we just cannot believe that there are honest and principled leaders anywhere including Cuba.



Quote:
.And then just what do YOU mean by &quot;freedom&quot;?
Freedom from want?
Freedom from illiteracy?
Freedom from disease?
or is Freedom just another word for &quot;nothing left to lose&quot;.

F:
All of the above
Freedom to travel if you so desire and have the money to afford it

J: The Cubans are free from hunger, free from illiteracy, free from lack of health care, free of crime, free of drugs and the drug trade, free of the endemic violence associated with capitalism, free to NOMINATE and vote for ANYONE they want as their representative.
They are poor and while they are not as free to travel as many others because of the money their lives, the lives of ALL Cubans are far better than the lives of a huge percentage of sub-Saharan Africans and sure, not better than the relative handful of moneyed people in Africa who can afford to travel since the poverty rates are way up past 50% in Africa.
Do you really think that having a countries with 50-80% of the people living in desperate poverty is preferable to the lives the Cubans have?

Sure, their speech is restricted and their ability to travel is limited but in African countries whatever you want to say can be said but that does not alleviate the poverty nor keep the poor from dying or improve democracy.
Sure the people with money can travel but the hundreds of millions without a dollar are not more free to travel.




Mugabe will redistribute the wealth from the richest to the poorest when rattlesnakes do pushups. Even were he of a mind to do that, the wealthy in the country would have him killed if he were to try it.
It has never been done in any poor Third World capitalist country because it would take a revolution to do so and a socialist revolution is the only kind that redistributes the wealth.


F:
Mugabe and ZANU-pf did it with land and people thought the same, lets wait and see.

J: I would not hold my breath waiting for Mugabe to do anything that will improve the lives of the average Zimbabwean. He is not a revolutionary. He is playing within the neo-colonial economic rules. He believes in capitalism and capitalism does not work in poor Third World countries. PERIOD. He has made a few reforms but the effects have been less than dazzling and I would bet the ranch that he's done with reforms and will have to just run out his term in office and retire to Switzerland so he can be with his money. (Unlike Fidel)

Again I ask: in which poor Third World country has poverty, starvation, illiteracy, crime and hopelessness been eradicated ? and why should your expectations for Mugabe's success be so high given the lack of a single example ?

franksterr
11-16-2010, 02:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J: There are no direct democracies in the world only representative democracies most of which have been corrupted so that the elected representatives who have been nominated, not by the people, but by the political parties serve the desires of both the political parties and the status quo they represent.
Cuba is the only representative democracy I know of where the people themselves nominate the candidates from amongst their voting district members.

Democracy means one thing and one thing only and that is rule by the people and not by political parties. </div></div>

Who decides or approves whose names gets to run for elections? I understand that the people may nominate individuals the question I am asking is who whittles it down to only two….
Is Cuba ruled by the Communist Party?
Are dissidents free from repression in Cuba?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That’s not what I said, “I said the poverty in Africa is a direct result of racism” please keep it honest and try not re-interpreting my words.

J: Okay, so if Africa is now black ruled why doesn't the poverty due to racism disappear? The reason is that there are black elites, black rich people who have a disproportionate amount of money and the rest of the people have very little.
That accumulation of money at the top is what capitalism is all about. Keeping blacks poor because they're black is racism. Keeping people poor because the economy is based on a have and have-not principle is what is happening and that is capitalism at work.</div></div>

Things do not happen overnight.
Blacks have political power….but in most cases is still fighting for economic power.
The Land issue is a first step in the direct achievement of economic power.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

J: When Fidel was convalescing from his abdominal surgery the newspaper showed his apartment/home and it was nothing special. Better than the average Cuban but no gold plated anything and no ostentatious show of wealth. It would be what the Cubans , who love Fidel would want him to have.
You seem to be conflating the PCC ( Cuban Communist Party) with the old corrupt Stalinist regimes that have gone away.
I have read that when you join the PCC you wind up doing your regular job and also have to put in long hours of volunteer work. It's what people who are dedicated to advancing the revolution do much like the old cane-cutter brigades back in the 70's.
It's mostly work and little privilege. That's why only about 15% of Cubans are members of the PCC. It is not too dissimilar to people in the U.S. who don't get involved in government because they don't have the time, talent or inclination but at 15% Cubans definitely show that they are interested in working extra to improve the country.
There is bound to be some corruption in the country given the shortages but I read everything I see on Cuba and I have only heard about a corruption problem in the general population and have never heard about party members being either corrupt or privileged.</div></div>
The fact remains he has more than the average Cuban, so he belongs to an elite.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think about it, when Fidel announced HIS land reform and large estates were taken and broken up and given to landless people, Fidel made sure that his family home was the FIRST one to be taken in order to provide a good example.
A man who thinks like that does not seek palaces nor privilege and in fact rejects those things.
Che Guevara was as important as you could get in post-revolutionary Cuba and he turned down fancy housing. He said as long as there are poor with poor housing he would live in poor housing as would a principled socialist and revolutionary.

I get the feeling that most of us have lived so long in countries with corrupt politicians that we just cannot believe that there are honest and principled leaders anywhere including Cubao .</div></div>

Why would he need a large estate in Cuba, when in effect the whole Island is now his estate, he just past it on to his brother.
Even in Cuba there is corrupt politicians
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J: The Cubans are free from hunger, free from illiteracy, free from lack of health care, free of crime, free of drugs and the drug trade, free of the endemic violence associated with capitalism, free to NOMINATE and vote for ANYONE they want as their representative.
They are poor and while they are not as free to travel as many others because of the money their lives, the lives of ALL Cubans are far better than the lives of a huge percentage of sub-Saharan Africans and sure, not better than the relative handful of moneyed people in Africa who can afford to travel since the poverty rates are way up past 50% in Africa.
Do you really think that having a countries with 50-80% of the people living in desperate poverty is preferable to the lives the Cubans have?</div></div>

Free to nominate anyone, but that person may not make it on the approved electoral list?
Free of hunger – why then the rise in child prostitution?
Freedom to travel is extremely important, without it you become a prisoner.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure, their speech is restricted and their ability to travel is limited but in African countries whatever you want to say can be said but that does not alleviate the poverty nor keep the poor from dying or improve democracy.
Sure the people with money can travel but the hundreds of millions without a dollar are not more free to travel. </div></div>

You do not need money in Africa to travel from state to state if you are able to walk or swim.
In Cuba even when you have the wherewithal you are stopped by the government.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
J: I would not hold my breath waiting for Mugabe to do anything that will improve the lives of the average Zimbabwean. He is not a revolutionary. He is playing within the neo-colonial economic rules. He believes in capitalism and capitalism does not work in poor Third World countries. PERIOD. He has made a few reforms but the effects have been less than dazzling and I would bet the ranch that he's done with reforms and will have to just run out his term in office and retire to Switzerland so he can be with his money. (Unlike Fidel)

Again I ask: in which poor Third World country has poverty, starvation, illiteracy, crime and hopelessness been eradicated ? and why should your expectations for Mugabe's success be so high given the lack of a single example ?</div></div>

No need to hold your breathe, Mugabe has already improved the lives of the average Zimbabwean
Mugabe has eradicated illiteracy, and there is no starvation in Zimbabwe..
Even in Cuba there is crime and proverty


Now your responses and question make it seems I am against Cuba or Castro, please note that is not the case.

johnnycakes
11-16-2010, 10:26 PM
F:
Who decides or approves whose names gets to run for elections? I understand that the people may nominate individuals the question I am asking is who whittles it down to only two….

J: The people in the voting districts can nominate any number of candidates. .
There could be ten but that's only possible but not probable. They get all the nominees' pictures and biographies up at a central public place for the electorate to read. They have the election and whoever gets 51% wins. If there are multiple candidates and no one gets 51% then they have a runoff election between the top two or three finishers and the one who gets 51% or more is the winner.
So, the whittling is done in the most democratic way there is; by the people.
Wouldn't you like something as democratic where you vote.?

F:
Is Cuba ruled by the Communist Party?

J:
Only about 15% of Cubans belong to the PCC but those 15% are the kind of revolutionary activists who are the type who want to get involved in government so the percentages in elected positions are much higher.

The PCC definitely controls the economy and any laws passed by the Assemblies that affect the socialist economy has to be okayed by them. Their economic system is new sometimes fragile and under attack from the United States and Europe and so needs a watchdog .

In government, party members have the same power as any other elected official and no more.

F:
Are dissidents free from repression in Cuba?

J: First explain what you mean by &quot;dissidents&quot; and what you mean by &quot;repression&quot; Because I have been down this road many times before I would ask that with your answers you both acknowledge and take into consideration the fact that the United States is waging war on Cuba and that the survival of the revolution is under threat.

Do you mean the imprisoned &quot;journalists&quot; ?

F:
Things do not happen overnight.
Blacks have political power….but in most cases is still fighting for economic power.
The Land issue is a first step in the direct achievement of economic power.

J: Things do not change under capitalism, at least not enough to end starvation for some 8 million people a year, or to prevent and cure diseases that kill millions or to end illiteracy or to stop crime.
Blacks would have power in a democracy but there are no democracies in Africa.
There are only multi-party electoral systems wherein the PARTIES decide for whom you get to vote. They are corrupt and self-perpetuating. Secondly, those with the money at the top buy off the politicians to keep the economies as they are; dedicated to the wealthy and/or powerful. Under that kind of system you could vote out corrupt people every year and they are replaced by another individual who is either already corrupt or who soon becomes corrupt because that's how that game is played.


Here's the kicker: It does not matter who is running the country either.
As long as wealth is allowed to concentrate in the hands of the top 5-10% of a given poor country, nothing CAN change. There is not enough money to effect social improvements.
If it could be done, it would have been done. It has not been done.
Look around you.
One step forward, two steps back. Eternal poverty and human misery. Half the world living needlessly (no pun) in poverty.
Mugabe is throwing the man drowning in a river 50 feet away a 2 foot rope.
Nice thought. All he can do in the circumstances but he cannot do better and it's not nearly enough. It's not all him, it's neo-colonialism but it's mostly capitalism that is holding Zimbabwe and the world back.
Things will not make sense to you until you understand that.



F:
The fact remains he has more than the average Cuban, so he belongs to an elite.

J:
Yes, elite. A nice apartment.
Fidel has said and I have already offered to take all bets that say otherwise that when he dies it will be with just the money in his pockets.
No Swiss bank accounts, no palaces, he wears jogging suits.
Elitist that he is.

F:
Why would he need a large estate in Cuba, when in effect the whole Island is now his estate, he just past it on to his brother.


J:
Fidel lives in an apartment or a house. How can Cuba be his estate? Is the U.S George Bush's estate?

About Raul. I will not respond to what you said about Fidel &quot;passing the presidency&quot; on to Raul except to say that you'd be wise to get a copy of Arnold' August's &quot;Democracy In Cuba: The 1997-1998 Elections and learn how the Cuban government is formed before you make statements like that. Once you read it you can come back and make the requisite retraction.


F;
Even in Cuba there is corrupt politicians

J;
Again, buy and read that book and you will understands why corrupt elected officials are the rare exception in Cuba. You will learn that the same voters who both nominated and elected that official meet with him/her every six months and at those meetings if the electorate thinks that he's corrupt or not doing a good job, anyone in the crowd can stand and call for his removal. Some one has to second the motion and then they vote by show of hands or, an actual head count if it is close. If the vote is to remove the official, he is gone right there and they start the nomination process for the new election.

Now, don't you wish YOU had that good an electoral system?

F:
Free to nominate anyone, but that person may not make it on the approved electoral list?

J; I explained this. GO read the book.


F:
Free of hunger – why then the rise in child prostitution?

J:
SHOW ME proof of child prostitution or any child exploitation in Cuba.
I am serious as cancer about this .
Show me , prove to me that child prostitution exists in Cuba.
The U.S., Zimbabwe, absolutely, Cuba: not a chance. They take care of THEIR kids.

F:
Freedom to travel is extremely important, without it you become a prisoner.

J:
Freedom to not starve to death and freedom not to die from preventable or curable disease are extremely important too, without them something like 12 million people die in sub-Saharan Africa EVERY goddammed year.
Where is your sense of perspective.





J:
YOU DID NOT ANSWER THIS:

Again I ask: in which poor Third World country has poverty, starvation, illiteracy, crime and hopelessness been eradicated ? and why should your expectations for Mugabe's success be so high given the lack of a single example ?

F:
No need to hold your breathe, Mugabe has already improved the lives of the average Zimbabwean
Mugabe has eradicated illiteracy, and there is no starvation in Zimbabwe..

J: I will trust you on this but will verify those claims.

F:
Even in Cuba there is crime and poverty.

J: Cuba has the lowest crime rate in the western hemisphere .
Cubans have little extra money because the nations wealth goes into health, education, jobs, homes, electrification, and all the things that have placed Cuba 51st on the Human Development Index of the U.N which a deals with peoples living standards. They may well be poor but NO ONE person in Cuba suffers from hunger, disease, illiteracy, homelessness or joblessness.
Come and talk to me when Mugabe or any other African leader accomplishes those things for all THEIR people.


F:
Now your responses and question make it seems I am against Cuba or Castro, please note that is not the case.

J; Well, friends of the revolution call Fidel Castro &quot;Fidel&quot;. All opponents of the revolution call him &quot;Castro&quot;.
Your accusational tone and lack of understanding of Cuba's revolution and what it has done carry all the signs of someone opposed and disinformed about the revolution.

Cuba's revolution was an anti-colonial revolution to put a halt to many of the same conditions that afflict Zimbabweans.
I would have thought you'd be hugely supportive rather than questioning the morals of the Cuban Revolution.

I have never considered whether or not you support capitalism and/or oppose socialism but if you say yes to either or both, that would explain the difficulty of your position.

You have to consider what is best for all and not just a few and you cannot do that with a capitalist mindset.

You cannot lift ALL Zimbabweans with anything that has to do with capitalism.
As long as you have a capitalist economy you will have huge levels of poverty and poverty under capitalism is fatal to millions upon millions every year.

Whose side ARE you on?

franksterr
11-17-2010, 07:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So, the whittling is done in the most democratic way there is; by the people.
Wouldn't you like something as democratic where you vote.?</div></div>
I hear you.... would dissenter be allowed if he had 51%

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
&quot;Local elections candidates are nominated in open meetings run by the CDR (Committees to Defend the Revolution) that are closely linked to police and security forces. They report and sanction dissent. Prison terms of 4 years threaten those that openly oppose the regime in that public meeting filled with informants. People not supporting can be threatened with losing their home and jobs.&quot;</div></div>
http://www.cubaverdad.net/democracy.htm


F:
Is Cuba ruled by the Communist Party?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Only about 15% of Cubans belong to the PCC but those 15% are the kind of revolutionary activists who are the type who want to get involved in government so the percentages in elected positions are much higher.

The PCC definitely controls the economy and any laws passed by the Assemblies that affect the socialist economy has to be okayed by them. Their economic system is new sometimes fragile and under attack from the United States and Europe and so needs a watchdog .

In government, party members have the same power as any other elected official and no more.</div></div>

In short contrary to what you said earlier Cuba is run by a political party???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Are dissidents free from repression in Cuba?

J: First explain what you mean by &quot;dissidents&quot; and what you mean by &quot;repression&quot; Because I have been down this road many times before I would ask that with your answers you both acknowledge and take into consideration the fact that the United States is waging war on Cuba and that the survival of the revolution is under threat.

Do you mean the imprisoned &quot;journalists&quot; ?
</div></div>
Anyone who disagrees with the way the nation is being run and voice their opinion, whilst trying to bring attention and voices to their cause.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
J: Things do not change under capitalism, at least not enough to end starvation for some 8 million people a year, or to prevent and cure diseases that kill millions or to end illiteracy or to stop crime.
Blacks would have power in a democracy but there are no democracies in Africa.
There are only multi-party electoral systems wherein the PARTIES decide for whom you get to vote. They are corrupt and self-perpetuating. Secondly, those with the money at the top buy off the politicians to keep the economies as they are; dedicated to the wealthy and/or powerful. Under that kind of system you could vote out corrupt people every year and they are replaced by another individual who is either already corrupt or who soon becomes corrupt because that's how that game is played.</div></div>

Aren’t you ignoring the fact that a whole lot has changed under Mugabe ?
The Rich Have already lost their lands in Zimbabwe….you seem bend on not admitting this to yourself.
They control over the economy is set to be shared up.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's the kicker: It does not matter who is running the country either.
As long as wealth is allowed to concentrate in the hands of the top 5-10% of a given poor country, nothing CAN change. There is not enough money to effect social improvements.
If it could be done, it would have been done. It has not been done.
Look around you.
One step forward, two steps back. Eternal poverty and human misery. Half the world living needlessly (no pun) in poverty.
Mugabe is throwing the man drowning in a river 50 feet away a 2 foot rope.
Nice thought. All he can do in the circumstances but he cannot do better and it's not nearly enough. It's not all him, it's neo-colonialism but it's mostly capitalism that is holding Zimbabwe and the world back.
Things will not make sense to you until you understand that.</div></div>

Your arguments always sound like religion to me, based on faith of a socialist utopia. Sociali
sm like capitalism are tools and they are as effective as the individuals using them.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes, elite. A nice apartment.
Fidel has said and I have already offered to take all bets that say otherwise that when he dies it will be with just the money in his pockets.
No Swiss bank accounts, no palaces, he wears jogging suits.
Elitist that he is.

Fidel lives in an apartment or a house. How can Cuba be his estate? Is the U.S George Bush's estate?

About Raul. I will not respond to what you said about Fidel &quot;passing the presidency&quot; on to Raul except to say that you'd be wise to get a copy of Arnold' August's &quot;Democracy In Cuba: The 1997-1998 Elections and learn how the Cuban government is formed before you make statements like that. Once you read it you can come back and make the requisite retraction.</div></div>
http://www.therealcuba.com/Castro%20the%20multimillionaire.htm
He has no need of either, as the state treasury is his private preserve and will fund all his needs and desires.
Will probable read that book one day, but not now.
I have always been and still is impressed by Castro and Cuba


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Again, buy and read that book and you will understands why corrupt elected officials are the rare exception in Cuba. You will learn that the same voters who both nominated and elected that official meet with him/her every six months and at those meetings if the electorate thinks that he's corrupt or not doing a good job, anyone in the crowd can stand and call for his removal. Some one has to second the motion and then they vote by show of hands or, an actual head count if it is close. If the vote is to remove the official, he is gone right there and they start the nomination process for the new election.</div></div>

And that is exceptional and good if not great, but that does not negate existence of corruption in Cuba’s Government.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, don't you wish YOU had that good an electoral system?</div></div>
Yes



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Free of hunger – why then the rise in child prostitution?

J:
SHOW ME proof of child prostitution or any child exploitation in Cuba.
I am serious as cancer about this .
Show me , prove to me that child prostitution exists in Cuba.
The U.S., Zimbabwe, absolutely, Cuba: not a chance. They take care of THEIR kids.</div></div>

Anywhere there is prostitution, there is child prostitution…
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/castro-prostitution.htm


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Freedom to not starve to death and freedom not to die from preventable or curable disease are extremely important too, without them something like 12 million people die in sub-Saharan Africa EVERY goddammed year.
Where is your sense of perspective.</div></div>

Those deaths and diseases in Africa is a result of poverty which is a result of racism
One does not negate the other…
Sure it is a good and great thing that starvation and disease are low in Cuba….





<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
YOU DID NOT ANSWER THIS
Again I ask: in which poor Third World country has poverty, starvation, illiteracy, crime and hopelessness been eradicated ? and why should your expectations for Mugabe's success be so high given the lack of a single example ?</div></div>

I answered it, I do not know about poverty, crime and hopelessness being absent from any country… but illiteracy is not a problem in Zimbabwe and starvation is no longer a real threat.
If all the above is eradicated, would it still be a third world country?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No need to hold your breathe, Mugabe has already improved the lives of the average Zimbabwean
Mugabe has eradicated illiteracy, and there is no starvation in Zimbabwe..

J: I will trust you on this but will verify those claims.</div></div>

Have you done so ???



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J: Cuba has the lowest crime rate in the western hemisphere .
Cubans have little extra money because the nations wealth goes into health, education, jobs, homes, electrification, and all the things that have placed Cuba 51st on the Human Development Index of the U.N which a deals with peoples living standards. They may well be poor but NO ONE person in Cuba suffers from hunger, disease, illiteracy, homelessness or joblessness.
Come and talk to me when Mugabe or any other African leader accomplishes those things for all THEIR people.</div></div>
How do you know the crime rate in Cuba?...doesn’t the government control and disseminate all such info?
How free is the press to report unfavorable things?
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/mar06/10e1.htm
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/jailing-the-jobless-in-cuba/
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now your responses and question make it seems I am against Cuba or Castro, please note that is not the case.

[quote]Well, friends of the revolution call Fidel Castro &quot;Fidel&quot;. All opponents of the revolution call him &quot;Castro&quot;.
Your accusational tone and lack of understanding of Cuba's revolution and what it has done carry all the signs of someone opposed and disinformed about the revolution.

Cuba's revolution was an anti-colonial revolution to put a halt to many of the same conditions that afflict Zimbabweans.
I would have thought you'd be hugely supportive rather than questioning the morals of the Cuban Revolution.

I have never considered whether or not you support capitalism and/or oppose socialism but if you say yes to either or both, that would explain the difficulty of your position.

You have to consider what is best for all and not just a few and you cannot do that with a capitalist mindset.

You cannot lift ALL Zimbabweans with anything that has to do with capitalism.
As long as you have a capitalist economy you will have huge levels of poverty and poverty under capitalism is fatal to millions upon millions every year.

Whose side ARE you on?</div></div>

I am on the side of poor disenfranchise Africans.
Did Castro experiment with capitalism in the 90’s?
Is there still some capitalism in Cuba?
I go with what works.
The questions I ask may sound accusatory only because they are a result of my doubts of this perfect utopia that you paint Cuba as.
I support the revolution, but have my doubts…….Why restrict freedom of movement?
Why no independent press?

johnnycakes
11-17-2010, 11:36 PM
F:
I hear you.... would dissenter be allowed if he had 51%

J:
EXCELLENT question. The answer is YES. That said, you must remember that the overwhelming majority of Cubans like their revolution and want to keep it. Dissenters by definition do not. They want a return to what the revolution threw out. In the electoral process under Poder Popular someone from the voting district has to nominate that dissenter and someone else has to second the nomination in order for the dissenter to become a candidate. If 90%+ of the people support the revolution, who is going to nominate a dissident? and then how in the world could the dissenter get 51% of the vote?


F: http://www.cubaverdad.net/democracy.htm

J: I don't know if you realize it but this is a right wing anti-Cuban website and it does not contain much objective information.
Were you familiar with Poder Popular, you'd know that.
Try Hello Cuba on Google and then go to the sections that explain the governmental form to know how it works without having to sift out the lies and half truths of cubaverdad.

F:
In short contrary to what you said earlier Cuba is run by a political party???

J: If you like, Cuba could be said to have certain areas of the society controlled by the PCC but it does not run candidates for office under the PCC banner. No parties are allowed to run political campaigns in Cuba because that corrupts the system as it does in the United States. Everyone runs as an individual. Every one of those elected are directly answerable to those who have elected them.
It is nothing like any other electoral or economic system that has ever existed and the fact that Cuba has ended illiteracy, lack of medical care, drug use and trade, gangs most crime etc show that it works better than anything you could name in a poor Third World country.



F:
Anyone who disagrees with the way the nation is being run and voice their opinion, whilst trying to bring attention and voices to their cause.

J: Anyone in Cuba can say anything they want. However, if they take action against the government then it's a crime as it would be in any country. Many of the so-called journalists and dissenters in Cuban prison have taken money from official U.S. sources to speak out and try to overturn public opinion in Cuba and bring Cuba back to what existed before the revolution.
As I've had to remind people many many times, the United States is at war with Cuba and is trying to destroy it.
Under similar circumstances in any other country, those people would be shot for treason during war rather than sitting in prison for seven or so years.

Most people in Cuba complain about the things that are wrong in their lives and in the country but very, very few would choose to get rid of either their electoral or their economic system and most would fight to the death for it were the U.S. to invade. .

F:
Aren’t you ignoring the fact that a whole lot has changed under Mugabe ?
The Rich Have already lost their lands in Zimbabwe….you seem bend on not admitting this to yourself.
They control over the economy is set to be shared up.

J: Mugabe has made the few moves that a capitalist economy in a poor country like Zimbabwe permits him to make and no more. He got rid of the rich white farmers and now you have lots of small farmers in varying degrees of success and failure.
Overall that is not going to end the poverty and the problems that come with capitalism in the Third World.
Mugabes limited successes have only had effect for about a year. That is no indicator of where Zimbabwe will wind up. I think you see it as the first steps in a longer process of renaissance while I see it as the only steps he will be able to take without being chased out.

Quote:
Here's the kicker: It does not matter who is running the country either.
As long as wealth is allowed to concentrate in the hands of the top 5-10% of a given poor country, nothing CAN change. There is not enough money to effect social improvements.
If it could be done, it would have been done. It has not been done.
Look around you.
One step forward, two steps back. Eternal poverty and human misery. Half the world living needlessly (no pun) in poverty.
Mugabe is throwing the man drowning in a river 50 feet away a 2 foot rope.
Nice thought. All he can do in the circumstances but he cannot do better and it's not nearly enough. It's not all him, it's neo-colonialism but it's mostly capitalism that is holding Zimbabwe and the world back.
Things will not make sense to you until you understand that.


F:
Your arguments always sound like religion to me, based on faith of a socialist utopia. Sociali
sm like capitalism are tools and they are as effective as the individuals using them.

J: It works in Cuba. That's not faith. That statement is based on good hard fact.
For 50 years -no starvation, complete (98%) literacy, universal healthcare, no crime , no drugs, etc etc etc, 51st place on the Human Development Index and ALL WHILE AT WAR FROM THE UNITED STATES.
There is absolutely NO reason why democratic socialism cannot do the same for Zimbabwe or any other poor country except there is no one with enough charisma and vision to carry it off given the forces of the status quo arrayed against them.

You seem to be saying that capitalism can work in a poor country but are unable to show me where that has ever happened to the extent that problems were solved as extensively as they were in Cuba in short order and under socialism under fire.
The better a nation is at capitalism the greater is the disparity in wealth .Capitalism guarantees at least a 25% poverty rate where people don't have the basic of life.
That is a persistent figure. To think that capitalism in Zimbabwe is somehow the exception is not logical.
Mugabe has no chance of accomplishing anything near like what Cuba has done for all its people.


F:
http://www.therealcuba.com/Castro%20the%20multimillionaire.htm

J; Sorry this is not only another counter-revolutionary website with which I am very familiar but if that story about Fidel is the one from Forbes about him being one of the richest leaders in the world , then you have been taken in by a huge lie.
This story was shot down as soon as it appeared . You are reading trash.
I give you alternative and valid sources and you come back with this sort of rubbish?
You're wasting your time and mine here.

F:
He has no need of either, as the state treasury is his private preserve and will fund all his needs and desires.

J: So you're saying Fidel can walk up to the national treasury and just take out a few million pesos? Dictators do that sort of thing.
Fidel lives quite simply for a world leader . What would he do with a ton of money?


F:Will probable read that book one day, but not now.

J: What you need to do is some very intensive study about Cuba's electoral system and while you should read every side of things , you will inevitably be misled by the types of websites that you have so far referenced. They really are academically poor and nothing any serious student should take at all seriously.
The problem is, when you do not KNOW what is true, you might believe anything especially when all you've ever heard or read or seen about Cuba has been from anti-Cuban sources and just about everything from the United States and its allies is anti-Cuban and often either lies, exaggerations, propaganda, yellow journalism.

I can plainly see it in how you express yourself.


F:
I have always been and still is impressed by Castro and Cuba

J: What is it about FIDEL and Cuba that impresses you FAVORABLY?
All I've been doing here is responding to what I think are anti-Cuban posts from you..
You have been questioning the democracy of their electoral system, their way of life and it would seem the intelligence and courage of the Cuban people.
You seem to have been saying that they do not love their revolution.


F;
And that is exceptional and good if not great, but that does not negate existence of corruption in Cuba’s Government.
J: Feel free to show me any website, even anti Cuban websites or sources that detail electoral corruption in Cuba. You'll have to look for a long long time .


Free of hunger – why then the rise in child prostitution?

J:
SHOW ME proof of child prostitution or any child exploitation in Cuba.
I am serious as cancer about this .
Show me , prove to me that child prostitution exists in Cuba.
The U.S., Zimbabwe, absolutely, Cuba: not a chance. They take care of THEIR kids.

F:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/castro-prostitution.htm

J:
I will check this out and get back to you.



Freedom to not starve to death and freedom not to die from preventable or curable disease are extremely important too, without them something like 12 million people die in sub-Saharan Africa EVERY goddammed year.
Where is your sense of perspective.


F:Those deaths and diseases in Africa is a result of poverty which is a result of racism

J: We disagree on the primary cause .


One does not negate the other…
Sure it is a good and great thing that starvation and disease are low in Cuba….





Quote:

YOU DID NOT ANSWER THIS
Again I ask: in which poor Third World country has poverty, starvation, illiteracy, crime and hopelessness been eradicated ? and why should your expectations for Mugabe's success be so high given the lack of a single example ?


I answered it, I do not know about poverty, crime and hopelessness being absent from any country… but illiteracy is not a problem in Zimbabwe and starvation is no longer a real threat.
If all the above is eradicated, would it still be a third world country?

Quote:

No need to hold your breathe, Mugabe has already improved the lives of the average Zimbabwean
Mugabe has eradicated illiteracy, and there is no starvation in Zimbabwe..

J: I will trust you on this but will verify those claims.


Have you done so ???

Yes I did and it seems that the improvement in Zimbabwe as regards ending starvation came only this year and there is a 90% literacy rate . There were many websites with horror stories on conditions prior to this year. You can hardly state that Zimbabwe is at an end or anywhere near resolution of the many problems it has.

Again, you think it's just the beginning of change while I think it is the same old same old putting bandages on a cancer, lipstick on a pig.

If history is any indicator, any improvements in the lives of Zimbabweans is minor and will be short lived. I've seen this in country after country since I started looking at these things back in the 60's. Capitalism simply is not fixable.




F;
How do you know the crime rate in Cuba?...doesn’t the government control and disseminate all such info?
How free is the press to report unfavorable things?
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/mar06/10e1.htm
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/jailing-the-jobless-in-cuba/
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

J: Fine , you can present any number of anti-revolutionary websites you'd care to but I will counter those by saying that people who run travel businesses
are among those who say that Cuba is the safest tourist destination in the hemisphere. Their livelihoods depend on being right about that and they do not care about socialism, capitalism, democracy or dictatorships. They want to send their customers to a safe place and all RELIABLE,sources on crime statistics say that Cuba is the safest place in the hemisphere.l.


F:
I am on the side of poor disenfranchise Africans.
J:
You cannot be both for capitalism and for the poor.
Do I have to explain why?


F:
Did Castro experiment with capitalism in the 90’s?

J:
Absolutely, positively not.
He is a dedicated and principled socialist.b

F:
Is there still some capitalism in Cuba?
J:
Not to my knowledge. There is a lot of free lancing by individuals but if you have an understanding of economics you would understand that this is not what defines capitalism. They work independently of the government and pay taxes on what they make. That is not capitalism.

F: I go with what works.

J: Capitalism does not work. The proof is amply displayed over the past 150 years anfd the world today.
Cuban democratic socialism has shown it works


F:
The questions I ask may sound accusatory only because they are a result of my doubts of this perfect utopia that you paint Cuba as.
I support the revolution, but have my doubts…….Why restrict freedom of movement?
Why no independent press?

J: Your questions are the result of what you have absorbed from what you've read , heard and seen in the anti-Cuban media you depend on for your information. That much is reflected in your questions which are no different from those asked by right wing anti-Cuban sources.
The statistics and info I gave you on health, education and welfare, government in Cuba are things I have checked constantly for over 40 years.
They are not in doubt and prove that Cuba's democratic socialism works.
Here's another statistic for you: In every election in Cuba, 97% of the eligible voters participate. people who dislike their government do not participate in elections.
The Cuban people love their revolution because it does work for them.

Lastly and I will repeat this until you acknowledge it,
The United States is waging a war against the Cuban people.
When any nation is threatened with extinction as Cuba is and has been for 50 years, rights are always restricted.
Or are you of the opinion that they should just somehow forget about that threat.?

Look at what the United States did to VietNam , Korea, Indonesia, Timor, Nicaragua, Chile, Grenada, Jamaica and then tell me why you even thought of asking about free speech etc.

The Cubans have put the restrictions on that are necessary to preserve their revolution in the face of the proven and 50 year old threat from the biggest meanest country that has ever existed yet you somehow cannot understand the necessity.

The United States locked up all the Japanese in the country during WWII and what do you thinks happened to any people in the U.S. who spoke up for the Nazi way of life ?

There is very little difference in the two situations.
_________________________

johnnycakes
11-17-2010, 11:43 PM
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/castro-prostitution.htm


I went and read this. There is nothing at all about child prostitution. There was one mention of penalties for &quot;child abuse and pimping&quot; but nothing about any child prostitution.

With CDRs (Block Committees) present in every neighborhood and with all Cuban kids going to school or in day care, it would be very difficult for anyone to be prostituting kids in Cuba and if caught they would probably be jailed for 30 years given how much Cubans care about their children.
Remember Elian Gonzalez? .

franksterr
11-18-2010, 08:08 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F: http://www.cubaverdad.net/democracy.htm

J: I don't know if you realize it but this is a right wing anti-Cuban website and it does not contain much objective information.
Were you familiar with Poder Popular, you'd know that.
Try Hello Cuba on Google and then go to the sections that explain the governmental form to know how it works without having to sift out the lies and half truths of cubaverdad.</div></div>

So if it says any about Cuba that’s does not fit your ideas….its lies and unobjective?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In short contrary to what you said earlier Cuba is run by a political party???

J: If you like, Cuba could be said to have certain areas of the society controlled by the PCC but it does not run candidates for office under the PCC banner. No parties are allowed to run political campaigns in Cuba because that corrupts the system as it does in the United States. Everyone runs as an individual. Every one of those elected are directly answerable to those who have elected them.
It is nothing like any other electoral or economic system that has ever existed and the fact that Cuba has ended illiteracy, lack of medical care, drug use and trade, gangs most crime etc show that it works better than anything you could name in a poor Third World country.</div></div>

Please stop doing gymnastics, Cuba is ruled by a political Party and in Cuba there is only One political party for the past 40 yrs.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
J: Anyone in Cuba can say anything they want. However, if they take action against the government then it's a crime as it would be in any country. Many of the so-called journalists and dissenters in Cuban prison have taken money from official U.S. sources to speak out and try to overturn public opinion in Cuba and bring Cuba back to what existed before the revolution.
As I've had to remind people many many times, the United States is at war with Cuba and is trying to destroy it.
Under similar circumstances in any other country, those people would be shot for treason during war rather than sitting in prison for seven or so years.

Most people in Cuba complain about the things that are wrong in their lives and in the country but very, very few would choose to get rid of either their electoral or their economic system and most would fight to the death for it were the U.S. to invade. .</div></div>

Sure you can say what you want, is what happens after you say what you want that’s important.
Not everyone who dissents is on the US payroll.
.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
J: Mugabe has made the few moves that a capitalist economy in a poor country like Zimbabwe permits him to make and no more. He got rid of the rich white farmers and now you have lots of small farmers in varying degrees of success and failure.
Overall that is not going to end the poverty and the problems that come with capitalism in the Third World.
Mugabes limited successes have only had effect for about a year. That is no indicator of where Zimbabwe will wind up. I think you see it as the first steps in a longer process of renaissance while I see it as the only steps he will be able to take without being chased out.</div></div>

They have already tried to chase him out for land reform and failed.
.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
J: It works in Cuba. That's not faith. That statement is based on good hard fact.
For 50 years -no starvation, complete (98%) literacy, universal healthcare, no crime , no drugs, etc etc etc, 51st place on the Human Development Index and ALL WHILE AT WAR FROM THE UNITED STATES.
There is absolutely NO reason why democratic socialism cannot do the same for Zimbabwe or any other poor country except there is no one with enough charisma and vision to carry it off given the forces of the status quo arrayed against them.</div></div>

What ever the people of Zimbabwe decides to do that works is fine by me be it communism, socialism or capitalism.
Without freedom of travel, it is difficult to know whats actually happening in Cuba.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You seem to be saying that capitalism can work in a poor country but are unable to show me where that has ever happened to the extent that problems were solved as extensively as they were in Cuba in short order and under socialism under fire.
The better a nation is at capitalism the greater is the disparity in wealth .Capitalism guarantees at least a 25% poverty rate where people don't have the basic of life.
That is a persistent figure. To think that capitalism in Zimbabwe is somehow the exception is not logical.
Mugabe has no chance of accomplishing anything near like what Cuba has done for all its people.</div></div>

When and where capitalism works the nation ceases to be poor, so that question is mute.
They are many countries that capitalism is working in, with varying degree of success.
Personally socialism is best, but in the final analysis it comes down to the people running the system.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
http://www.therealcuba.com/Castro%20the%20multimillionaire.htm

J; Sorry this is not only another counter-revolutionary website with which I am very familiar but if that story about Fidel is the one from Forbes about him being one of the richest leaders in the world , then you have been taken in by a huge lie.
This story was shot down as soon as it appeared . You are reading trash.
I give you alternative and valid sources and you come back with this sort of rubbish?
You're wasting your time and mine here</div></div>

ONLY You would expect a pro-Castro website to tell the painful truth.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
J: So you're saying Fidel can walk up to the national treasury and just take out a few million pesos? Dictators do that sort of thing.
Fidel lives quite simply for a world leader . What would he do with a ton of money? </div></div>

Yes if he so choose, of course there are other more palatable methods that he may employ.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
J: What you need to do is some very intensive study about Cuba's electoral system and while you should read every side of things , you will inevitably be misled by the types of websites that you have so far referenced. They really are academically poor and nothing any serious student should take at all seriously.
The problem is, when you do not KNOW what is true, you might believe anything especially when all you've ever heard or read or seen about Cuba has been from anti-Cuban sources and just about everything from the United States and its allies is anti-Cuban and often either lies, exaggerations, propaganda, yellow journalism.</div></div>
I have read the experts on both sides, including yourself.
None has satisfied my doubts.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
J: What is it about FIDEL and Cuba that impresses you FAVORABLY?
All I've been doing here is responding to what I think are anti-Cuban posts from you..
You have been questioning the democracy of their electoral system, their way of life and it would seem the intelligence and courage of the Cuban people.
You seem to have been saying that they do not love their revolution.</div></div>

The educational system, Cuba’s role in Africa struggle, Cuba ability to survive against the US will, willingness to give aid.
Yes I question their democracy
I have already quoted an instance of electoral corruption, in which dissenters and all who nominate them stand to face serious reprisals.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
SHOW ME proof of child prostitution or any child exploitation in Cuba.
I am serious as cancer about this .
Show me , prove to me that child prostitution exists in Cuba.
The U.S., Zimbabwe, absolutely, Cuba: not a chance. They take care of THEIR kids.

F:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/castro-prostitution.htm </div></div>

If there is prostitution, there is child prostitution it goes without saying.
Cuba's Real Record On Child Prostitution
Cuban lawmakers have opted to not criminalize prostitution but, rather, to focus on sexual procurement (i.e., pimping) by increasing the penalties. The sentence for pimping was increased to four to ten years, <span style="font-weight: bold">increasing to seven to fifteen years if minors are involved</span>. Prison sentences were increased for the corruption of minors in an effort to stop the activities of sex offenders and pedophiles. The penalty for pedophilia was set at fifteen to thirty years.
http://www.gvnet.com/childprostitution/Cuba.htm
http://www.childtrafficking.com/Docs/o_connell_1996__child_prost2.pdf
http://vodpod.com/watch/4112931-corrupci...itution-in-cuba (http://vodpod.com/watch/4112931-corrupcin-y-prostitucin-infantil-en-cuba-corruption-and-child-prostitution-in-cuba)




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Freedom to not starve to death and freedom not to die from preventable or curable disease are extremely important too, without them something like 12 million people die in sub-Saharan Africa EVERY goddammed year.
Where is your sense of perspective.


F:Those deaths and diseases in Africa is a result of poverty which is a result of racism

J: We disagree on the primary cause .


One does not negate the other…
Sure it is a good and great thing that starvation and disease are low in Cuba….</div></div>
Chickens and cows meant for slaughter are well fed and provided with the best health care…..the only thing denied them is the ability to leave the farm – they are imprisoned or penned. Back in colonial days slaves where fed quartered and provided with heath care, the only thing denied them was the ability to leave on their own.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes I did and it seems that the improvement in Zimbabwe as regards ending starvation came only this year and there is a 90% literacy rate . There were many websites with horror stories on conditions prior to this year. You can hardly state that Zimbabwe is at an end or anywhere near resolution of the many problems it has.</div></div>

Thru-out the 80’s Zimbabwe was known as the breadbasket of Africa, until the West want to impoverish using the IMF forced policies on them that destroyed their reserves and local market.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, you think it's just the beginning of change while I think it is the same old same old putting bandages on a cancer, lipstick on a pig.

If history is any indicator, any improvements in the lives of Zimbabweans is minor and will be short lived. I've seen this in country after country since I started looking at these things back in the 60's. Capitalism simply is not fixable. </div></div>
Africa and Africans will not fall for the neo-colonial policies of the west, like happen in the sixties and Mugabe victories is signaling that change. Mugabe’s success is a regional effort.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/mar06/10e1.htm
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/jailing-the-jobless-in-cuba/
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

J: Fine , you can present any number of anti-revolutionary websites you'd care to but I will counter those by saying that people who run travel businesses
are among those who say that Cuba is the safest tourist destination in the hemisphere. Their livelihoods depend on being right about that and they do not care about socialism, capitalism, democracy or dictatorships. They want to send their customers to a safe place and all RELIABLE,sources on crime statistics say that Cuba is the safest place in the hemisphere.l.</div></div>
Dictators have always been able to handle crime better than democracies, during Mussolini reign the mafia and crime was at an all time low in Italy.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You cannot be both for capitalism and for the poor.
Do I have to explain why?</div></div>
Please do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Did Castro experiment with capitalism in the 90’s?

J:
Absolutely, positively not.
He is a dedicated and principled socialist.b

F:
Is there still some capitalism in Cuba?
J:
Not to my knowledge. There is a lot of free lancing by individuals but if you have an understanding of economics you would understand that this is not what defines capitalism. They work independently of the government and pay taxes on what they make. That is not capitalism.
</div></div>
How is that not capitalism?
What do you understand about the “special period”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/16/AR2010091607381.html

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Capitalism does not work. The proof is amply displayed over the past 150 years anfd the world today.
Cuban democratic socialism has shown it works</div></div>
Of course it did when they were getting 6 billion dollars a yr from mother Russia.
The yrs fallowing Russia collapse Castro instituted capitalistic changes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J: Your questions are the result of what you have absorbed from what you've read , heard and seen in the anti-Cuban media you depend on for your information. That much is reflected in your questions which are no different from those asked by right wing anti-Cuban sources.
The statistics and info I gave you on health, education and welfare, government in Cuba are things I have checked constantly for over 40 years.
They are not in doubt and prove that Cuba's democratic socialism works.
Here's another statistic for you: In every election in Cuba, 97% of the eligible voters participate. people who dislike their government do not participate in elections.
The Cuban people love their revolution because it does work for them.</div></div>
Where do you get your info….from pro-Castro media?
If you cannot see the difference between my question and a right wing anti-Castro protagonist then maybe you are seeing enemies where none exist.
You will turn out to vote if your freedom or If your next meal depends on it you will.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lastly and I will repeat this until you acknowledge it,
The United States is waging a war against the Cuban people.
When any nation is threatened with extinction as Cuba is and has been for 50 years, rights are always restricted.
Or are you of the opinion that they should just somehow forget about that threat.?

Look at what the United States did to VietNam , Korea, Indonesia, Timor, Nicaragua, Chile, Grenada, Jamaica and then tell me why you even thought of asking about free speech etc.

The Cubans have put the restrictions on that are necessary to preserve their revolution in the face of the proven and 50 year old threat from the biggest meanest country that has ever existed yet you somehow cannot understand the necessity.

The United States locked up all the Japanese in the country during WWII and what do you thinks happened to any people in the U.S. who spoke up for the Nazi way of life ?

There is very little difference in the two situations. </div></div>

Never denied that Cuba and America is at War(cold)
Did they lock up the Germans? No – Racism at work.
What rights are restricted, what speech is restricted….The American Bund.

johnnycakes
11-18-2010, 03:11 PM
F:
So if it says any about Cuba that’s does not fit your ideas….its lies and unobjective?

J:
I've been a student of the Cuban revolution for forty years and in that time have read everything I could about it. Of necessity that included all the anti-Cuban stuff in the national media but also a great many anti-Cuban websites such as the one you have referenced. I know some of them well enough to just see the URL to know exactly what I will find if I go there.
It can be no secret to you that the United States houses most of the old Batista crowd in Florida and that they are rabidly anti-revolutionary and their websites reflect that, sometimes in unintentionally ridiculous statements.
The government itself, through then State Department also puts out what is anti-socialist propaganda and which is quite transparent BUT only to those who know more than the average (uninformed/disinformed) American.

In order to see through the BS, you have to have ALL or a lot of the information on a given topic and in a historical setting in order to be able to differentiate between fact and fiction.
So far, all you have referenced is the anti-Cuban websites and your questions often reflect a lack of the facts needed to come to a rational conclusion about things Cuban.
Had you read Fidel's speeches (there are several books of them) or August's books or clearly understood U.S. 20th/21st century foreign policy, we would not be having this discussion.


.


F:
Please stop doing gymnastics, Cuba is ruled by a political Party and in Cuba there is only One political party for the past 40 yrs.

J:
This is what I mean about the difficulty of trying to explain the unique Cuban economic/electoral system . You would have to read quite a bit of rather dry stuff to understand what the PCC is and what its function is. It is nothing like ZANU or the Democrats. Suffice to say that the PCC does not run political campaigns.
Does that sound like any kind of political party that you know of?
And that is just one difference. You need to read up on the PCC function. Neither time nor inclination enable me to do it for you. Takes too long at the keyboard.






F:
Sure you can say what you want, is what happens after you say what you want that’s important.
Not everyone who dissents is on the US payroll.

J: Look at it this way. If, in 1825 someone in the U.S were to come out publicly and say that the U.S. should revert to the British rule, how popular do you think that person would be in his neighborhood and country?
If someone in Zimbabwe were to say that white colonial rule would be much better than independence , how would the average Zimbabwean react to that person?

And the fact is that while not all of the people who gripe publicly in Cuba are on the U.S payroll, most of the ones in prison were and money continues to come in from the U.S with the purpose of undermining the Cuban revolution.

There are specific laws in Cuba regarding how far you can go in speaking against the Revolution just as there are similar laws in every country. Every Cuban who breaks these laws knows about them and cannot be shocked about getting arrested for fomenting a counter revolution. While I am not saying it is a deliberate plan I would not be surprised at all if these &quot;dissenters on the payroll&quot; are paid to go to jail so that the United States can then raise a hue and cry about &quot;political prisoners&quot; and thereby discredit the revolution. It is at least feasible.

.
Quote:

F:
They have already tried to chase him out for land reform and failed.

J: Well, if he tries redistributing the wealth that is in the hands of the present elite
(which I doubt he would consider doing, no one else has ever done it in Sub-Saharan Africa) it would be quite a different story. IMO

.

F:
What ever the people of Zimbabwe decides to do that works is fine by me be it communism, socialism or capitalism.
Without freedom of travel, it is difficult to know whats actually happening in Cuba.

J:
The people of Zimbabwe are not free to decide on which economic system they will have. It would take a violent revolution to get rid of capitalism and the United States would probably not allow it. You are stuck with what the United States wants which is capitalism and as history shows, it cannot be reformed to the point that it can take care of the needs of ALL the people as socialism has done in Cuba

.It is true that freedom of travel restricts our ability to know what's going on in Cuba because the United States prevents its citizens from going to Cuba ( theonly country in the world where U.S citizens cannot legally go) exactly so that we, the people . the voters cannot see what is going on in Cuba and possibly demand an end to the U.S. war against the people of Cuba.


F:
When and where capitalism works the nation ceases to be poor, so that question is moot.
They are many countries that capitalism is working in, with varying degree of success

J;
Okay Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland a few more of the highly advanced technological rich countries through very high taxation have created humane societies.
That fact has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism in the Third World because it not only does not work in those countries but cannot due to debt, lack of natural and human resources, general poverty, corruption.
.
F:
Personally socialism is best, but in the final analysis it comes down to the people running the system.

J:
And the people running the system are the people with the money and power who are not of a mind to give up much of it to the average person.
The multi-party electoral system of which you are a fan guarantees that only those who support the party's position which almost always is the status quo are nominated by the party and those are the only people you get to vote for.
Party politics and big money corrupt the leadership in most capitalist countries to ensure that capitalism and privilege are preserved.
See it.

F:
ONLY You would expect a pro-Castro website to tell the painful truth.

J:
If you would like to think that Fidel is just another dictator sitting on bags of stolen money and living like a king, that's your right.
Personally I have never seen or heard any evidence of this and given that Fidel gave up his family estate to landless Cubans right after the revolution, it would seem to run counter to that spirit were he now to acquire wealth and the trappings of the rulers in all other countries.
As said, he lives in a modest but nice apartment/house,
Try to find someone who has served as leader for a long time who lives in a more simple fashion than Fidel


F:
Yes if he so choose, of course there are other more palatable methods that he may
employ.

J: what would he do with the money given the simple life style he has and wouldn't any ostentatious display of personal wealth be picked up on and spread across the U.S. media overnight in big letters??


F:
I have read the experts on both sides, including yourself.
None has satisfied my doubts.

J:
How can you make that claim when you have shown that you do not have a basic understanding of either Poder Popular or Cuba's socialist economy or the function of the PCC which I have had to explain here at great length?

F: ADMIRES
The educational system, Cuba’s role in Africa struggle, Cuba ability to survive against the US will, willingness to give aid.


J: Fair enough . What about health care , the training of foreign doctors to serve the poor in their home countries for free, the lack of crime, drugs, violence, gangs ?l

F:
Yes I question their democracy
I have already quoted an instance of electoral corruption, in which dissenters and all who nominate them stand to face serious reprisals.

J:
Excuse me, but as explained at the nomination meetings under Poder Popular anyone can nominate anyone and all that is needed for that person dissident or not to become a candidate is for someone, anyone to second that nomination.
I said nothing about serious reprisals because there are none. It is a completely democratic process.
As already explained, the revolution is very popular in Cuba. Dissenters, those opposed to the socialist system are about as popular in Cuba as we communists are here in the United States where we represent about 3% of the population.
If we had Poder Popular in the United States and I, a known communist, wanted to become the representative for my neighborhood and completely change what exists, just how could I get anyone to nominate me?
Even if I could get nominated and seconded, how many people in my district would want me, an enemy of the political and economic systems here, as their representative?
The situation for your so-called dissidents is no different in Cuba. They are sometimes tolerated but not listened to by many Cubans who as said, are dedicated to THEIR revolution.
F:
If there is prostitution, there is child prostitution it goes without saying.

J:
I have only seen your claim that this is so. It runs contrary to the spirit of the revolution wherein children are revered as the future of Cuba.
How would people running child prostitution in Cuba evade 1) the police 2) the block committees, 3) the school authorities and 4) the family doctors for these children ?
F:
Prison sentences were increased for the corruption of minors in an effort to stop the activities of sex offenders and pedophiles. The penalty for pedophilia was set at fifteen to thirty years.

J: Again, nothing here on child prostitution in Cuba.
I'll do an extensive Goggle search on it after posting this and will get back if I find info from a valid source that contradicts me.



Quote:
Freedom to not starve to death and freedom not to die from preventable or curable disease are extremely important too, without them something like 12 million people die in sub-Saharan Africa EVERY goddammed year.
Where is your sense of perspective.


F:Those deaths and diseases in Africa is a result of poverty which is a result of racism

J: We disagree on the primary cause .


F:
One does not negate the other…
Sure it is a good and great thing that starvation and disease are low in Cuba….

Chickens and cows meant for slaughter are well fed and provided with the best health care…..the only thing denied them is the ability to leave the farm – they are imprisoned or penned. Back in colonial days slaves where fed quartered and provided with heath care, the only thing denied them was the ability to leave on their own.

J: Okay now we're down to Cubans being regarded as prisoners in a gulag.
If that's how you think, then we definitely have differing views on what the Cuban revolution is and what it has done for the Cuban people.
F:
Thru-out the 80’s Zimbabwe was known as the breadbasket of Africa, until the West want to impoverish using the IMF forced policies on them that destroyed their reserves and local market.

J:

What colonialism and neo-colonialism has done to African nations is significant and a major factor in today's problems but as long as there is corrupt party electoral systems and the totally corrupting force of capitalism riding herd on that government Zimbabwe will never see serious change. I know you hope for better but history should adequately show you the folly of that thinking.
Obama was supposed to be President Change too.


F:
Africa and Africans will not fall for the neo-colonial policies of the west, like happen in the sixties and Mugabe victories is signaling that change. Mugabe’s success is a regional effort.

J: Africans have fallen for multi-party electoral systems that are undemocratic and corrupt.
Africans have adopted capitalism whole hog.
You let me know when either of those things are thrown out and I'll start thinking that Robert Mugabe is serious.

F;
Dictators have always been able to handle crime better than democracies, during Mussolini reign the mafia and crime was at an all time low in Italy.

J:
Now you're saying that Cuba is a dictatorship?.
Now you are totally ignoring the democracy of Poder Popular after having said that you would like the most democratic feature of it which is throwing political parties out of the nomination process and having the voters themselves choose their own candidates.
The low crime rate in Cuba is due to many factors that come with a socialist economy and a democratic government. Cuba is not a police state much as those who oppose the revolution would have us think.

You cannot be both for capitalism and for the poor.
Do I have to explain why?

F:
Please do.

J:
Under capitalism, much of the wealth of a country is concentrated at the top in big corporations, a small percentage of very wealthy people and in poor countries this results in poverty rates that can top 80% in the poorest countries and only the richest countries can get poverty levels down to 10%. In the U.S the poverty rate is about 25% due to the great disparity in personal wealth and the high living costs, high unemployment, racism etc.
Capitalism is based on worship of money.
When money has top priority the poor die by the millions.
This is not theory.
This is the reality that evidences itself most disastrously in sub_Saharan Africa.
I would have thought you'd have notice by now.
But then you think it's all based on racism so let me ask you, were racism to vanish tomorrow would poverty disappear in Africa.?
In the U.S while a disproportionate number of blacks are poor due to racism, the numbers of white poor far outnumber them by 8 times or so.
If there were no racism there would still be the same number of poor people because it is entirely related to the inequities inherent in capitalism .


Not to my knowledge. There is a lot of free lancing by individuals but if you have an understanding of economics you would understand that this is not what defines capitalism. They work independently of the government and pay taxes on what they make. That is not capitalism.

F:
How is that not capitalism?

J:
I cannot explain Economics 101 here but suffice to say that since independent workers do not exploit other people they are not practicing capitalism.
You'd need a deeper background on what comprises capitalism, socialism and communism to fully understand this.


F:
What do you understand about the “special period”


J: When the Soviet Union collapsed and aid to Cuba was ended the Cubans had to resort to some desperate measures to hold things together. What are you asking specifically?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/16/AR2010091607381.html

J:
Cuban democratic socialism has shown it works

F:
Of course it did when they were getting 6 billion dollars a yr from mother Russia.
The yrs fallowing Russia collapse Castro instituted capitalistic changes.

J:
Cuban socialism is still here and doing fine some 20 years after losing Soviet aid.
They survived and adapted to the new conditions.
The strict socialist economy is still a strict socialist economy.
What is your point?


F:
Where do you get your info….from pro-Castro media?

J:
As explained, I have been a student of the Cuban revolution and U.S. foreign policy which are directly related for about 40 years. I read everything I see about Cuba and it is a big part of what I do to take in information from those who oppose the Revolution and check it out for accuracy by going to multiple sources for corroboration or denial .
After 40 years of this whatever is propaganda is quickly and easily discerned as much of what is talked about is history that I've already studied in depth.
While true that I am a big supporter of the Cuban revolution, it is only because I have the confidence in the reliability of my 40 years of information from following the Cuban revolution.

F:
If you cannot see the difference between my question and a right wing anti-Castro protagonist then maybe you are seeing enemies where none exist.
You will turn out to vote if your freedom or If your next meal depends on it you will.

J:
Are you now saying that the Cuban people are forced to vote?
There's a thought not very friendly to the reality of the Cuban revolution.
Since you know next-to-nothing about the Cuban electoral system I'll take the time to explain the illogic of that statement.
In Cuban elections as everywhere, the voter ids given a secret ballot to mark and put into voting boxes guarded by....the Cuban equivalent of Boy Scouts.
Anyone who wants to can write in anything they want or deface the ballot and put it in the box and no one is there to check his or her vote out.
So even if someone were watching to see who votes and who doesn't, they would be unable to see how they voted or if they left their ballot blank or wrote &quot;Raul sucks&quot; on it. In the 1997-98 elections some 3% of the ballots were defaced by voters.
All this is in the book by Arnold August

F:
Never denied that Cuba and America is at War(cold)
J:
Here you're saying that the U.S. war against Cuba IS a cold war or was part of the old cold war.
During the past 50 years the U.S has introduced Dengue Fever, tobacco disease, swine disease, to Cuba, bombed hotels in Havana, invaded at the Bay of Pig/Playa Giron and economically blockaded the island.
is that your idea of cold war tactics?
The war is why certain rights have had to be restricted in Cuba as rights often are in countries under threat.
Have you been through a airport search in the United States lately?



Let's wrap this up.
Cuban democratic socialism works to the satisfaction of the Cuban people.
They think it works.
Capitalism and multi-party politics are what is ruining the Third World and it cannot be reformed to the point that it can do anywhere near what the Cuban revolution has done for all Cubans. The fact that such systems have never been reformed successfully to any great degree is all the proof you should need to understand this.

I know you disagree with me now but I am sure that in another 20 years or so of disappointment you'll see what I see.

johnnycakes
11-18-2010, 09:24 PM
About Fidel having access to the treasury and or being a very rich man.
This how the story was followed up by the left and Fidel.


Allow Me To Explain
Is Fidel Castro one of the richest men in the world?

Posted in Cuba, Fidel Castro by amte on October 3, 2009
In 2005, American business and financial magazine Forbes listed Castro among the world’s richest people, with an estimated net worth of $550 million. The estimates claimed that the Cuban leader’s personal wealth was nearly double that of Britain’s Queen Elizabeth II, despite evidence from diplomats and businessmen that the Cuban leader’s personal life was notably austere. Forbes later increased the estimates to $900 million, adding rumors of large cash stashes in Switzerland. The magazine offered no proof at all of this information.

Of course it was all entirely bogus – the bunk methodology they used was based on the lie that Fidel Castro owns everything in the entire country of Cuba. Even in their article they admitted their “estimate” was “more art than science” — or in other words, [censored].

Fidel’s response?

“PRESIDENT Fidel Castro has challenged and called on Bush, the CIA, the 33 U.S. intelligence agencies, the thousands of banks in the world and the ‘servants’ of Forbes magazine, which claims that Fidel has a fortune of $900 million, to prove that he has even one dollar in an overseas account.

“In exchange for just one shred of evidence, he said that he would offer them everything that they have tried and failed to do over almost half a century, during which time they have tried to destroy the Revolution and assassinate him via hundreds of conspiracies. ‘I’m giving you everything you’ve tried,’ he said, ‘and don’t come with your foolishness and wayside stories. Show me an account, of just one dollar,’ he emphasized.

“If they can prove that I have one single dollar, I will resign from all my responsibilities and the duties I am carrying out; they won’t need any more plans or transitions, if they can prove that I have one single dollar,” the revolutionary leader said emphatically.” – Granma newspaper

Later:

“Bush has not uttered a word and neither have the State Department, Congress or the CIA. Only the Nuevo Herald, a Miami newspaper, has tried to defend [the Forbes article] at the request of the Cuban-American mafia [the handful of rich white Cubans who left the country after the revolution because they didn’t want to be equal with the rest of the people]. This silence by the US Administration demonstrates the extent of its weakness.” – Radio Habana

Even the Miami Herald, a rightwing newspaper with ties to the Cuban-American mafia that is historically hostile to the Cuban Revolution admits that Fidel Castro lives in about the same conditions as everyone else in Cuba. The newspaper has previously printed articles in which it acknowledges that “The houses of Fidel and Raúl are large but simply appointed…. The living room of [Fidel’s] house is described by visitors as furnished with simple wood and leather sofas and chairs and Cuban handicrafts…. The only luxury visible to visitors is a big-screen television….”

and then there's this:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/fidel/castro-family.htm

johnnycakes
11-18-2010, 09:43 PM
I was asked what Fidel is doing now.
Among other things he writes his &quot;Reflections&quot; column for Granma.
Here's his latest on the G20 meeting.

Try to imagine George Bush or most retired world leaders trying to write something like this or just doing the reading that is required

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/reflections-i/15noviembre-46Reflex1.html

franksterr
11-21-2010, 12:51 PM
johnnycakes

Its been a long hectic week but fun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been a student of the Cuban revolution for forty years and in that time have read everything I could about it. Of necessity that included all the anti-Cuban stuff in the national media but also a great many anti-Cuban websites such as the one you have referenced. I know some of them well enough to just see the URL to know exactly what I will find if I go there.
It can be no secret to you that the United States houses most of the old Batista crowd in Florida and that they are rabidly anti-revolutionary and their websites reflect that, sometimes in unintentionally ridiculous statements.
The government itself, through then State Department also puts out what is anti-socialist propaganda and which is quite transparent BUT only to those who know more than the average (uninformed/disinformed) American.</div></div>

Could you recommend an unbiased site?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In order to see through the BS, you have to have ALL or a lot of the information on a given topic and in a historical setting in order to be able to differentiate between fact and fiction.</div></div>

I think I do.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So far, all you have referenced is the anti-Cuban websites and your questions often reflect a lack of the facts needed to come to a rational conclusion about things Cuban.</div></div>

Well what would you expect, if they are saying things that do not reflect good on Cuba or Castro.... What is important is if they are true.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Had you read Fidel's speeches (there are several books of them) or August's books or clearly understood U.S. 20th/21st century foreign policy, we would not be having this discussion.</div></div>

Years ago....
I an well aware of US foreign policy vis-a-vis Cuba.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This is what I mean about the difficulty of trying to explain the unique Cuban economic/electoral system . You would have to read quite a bit of rather dry stuff to understand what the PCC is and what its function is. It is nothing like ZANU or the Democrats. Suffice to say that the PCC does not run political campaigns.
Does that sound like any kind of political party that you know of?
And that is just one difference. You need to read up on the PCC function. Neither time nor inclination enable me to do it for you. Takes too long at the keyboard. </div></div>

Yes it does sound like the CPSU and it never campaign only recruitment drives.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look at it this way. If, in 1825 someone in the U.S were to come out publicly and say that the U.S. should revert to the British rule, how popular do you think that person would be in his neighborhood and country?
If someone in Zimbabwe were to say that white colonial rule would be much better than independence , how would the average Zimbabwean react to that person?</div></div>

In the US during and after the war of independence they were many pro-British politicians. In Zimbabwe there is Tsvangiria who is facilitating the return of white rule.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the fact is that while not all of the people who gripe publicly in Cuba are on the U.S payroll, most of the ones in prison were and money continues to come in from the U.S with the purpose of undermining the Cuban revolution.

There are specific laws in Cuba regarding how far you can go in speaking against the Revolution just as there are similar laws in every country. Every Cuban who breaks these laws knows about them and cannot be shocked about getting arrested for fomenting a counter revolution. While I am not saying it is a deliberate plan I would not be surprised at all if these &quot;dissenters on the payroll&quot; are paid to go to jail so that the United States can then raise a hue and cry about &quot;political prisoners&quot; and thereby discredit the revolution. It is at least feasible. </div></div>

Where are the legal dissenters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, if he tries redistributing the wealth that is in the hands of the present elite
(which I doubt he would consider doing, no one else has ever done it in Sub-Saharan Africa) it would be quite a different story. IMO</div></div>

The Laws for such actions - The redistribution of wealth has already been passed in Zimbabwe, so now its a matter of keeping the puppets out of power long enough for them to be instituted.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The people of Zimbabwe are not free to decide on which economic system they will have. It would take a violent revolution to get rid of capitalism and the United States would probably not allow it. You are stuck with what the United States wants which is capitalism and as history shows, it cannot be reformed to the point that it can take care of the needs of ALL the people as socialism has done in Cuba</div></div>

They tried to stop Land reform and failed and they will also failed in their efforts to stop redistribution of wealth if ZANU and Mugabe remains in power.
The problem is not the system but the people. The system is only a tool, and yes certain tools are best suited for specific jobs but tools can be used to accomplished jobs they were not design for.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is true that freedom of travel restricts our ability to know what's going on in Cuba because the United States prevents its citizens from going to Cuba ( theonly country in the world where U.S citizens cannot legally go) exactly so that we, the people . the voters cannot see what is going on in Cuba and possibly demand an end to the U.S. war against the people of Cuba. </div></div>

Cuba prevents its citizen for leaving to go anywhere.
The US never prevented My Brother from visiting Cuba.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland a few more of the highly advanced technological rich countries through very high taxation have created humane societies.
That fact has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism in the Third World because it not only does not work in those countries but cannot due to debt, lack of natural and human resources, general poverty, corruption.</div></div>

So it works in those European countries.
Racism is the only reason it does not work in so called third world countries.
.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And the people running the system are the people with the money and power who are not of a mind to give up much of it to the average person.
The multi-party electoral system of which you are a fan guarantees that only those who support the party's position which almost always is the status quo are nominated by the party and those are the only people you get to vote for.
Party politics and big money corrupt the leadership in most capitalist countries to ensure that capitalism and privilege are preserved.
See it.</div></div>

The people running the system are always the one with power and often with the money in every system of governance.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you would like to think that Fidel is just another dictator sitting on bags of stolen money and living like a king, that's your right.
Personally I have never seen or heard any evidence of this and given that Fidel gave up his family estate to landless Cubans right after the revolution, it would seem to run counter to that spirit were he now to acquire wealth and the trappings of the rulers in all other countries.
As said, he lives in a modest but nice apartment/house,
Try to find someone who has served as leader for a long time who lives in a more simple fashion than Fidel

what would he do with the money given the simple life style he has and wouldn't any ostentatious display of personal wealth be picked up on and spread across the U.S. media overnight in big letters??</div></div>

I have provided you with just such examples and you refuse to admit them
Fortune Magazine had him listed as a wealthy man to the tune of 900 million.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can you make that claim when you have shown that you do not have a basic understanding of either Poder Popular or Cuba's socialist economy or the function of the PCC which I have had to explain here at great length?</div></div>

I said I have read not studied the experts on Cuba...
You refuse to accept the fact that the community police dictates who are acceptable candidates/nominates.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F: ADMIRES
The educational system, Cuba’s role in Africa struggle, Cuba ability to survive against the US will, <span style="color: #FF0000">willingness to give aid.</span>

J: Fair enough . What about health care , <span style="color: #FF0000">the training of foreign doctors to serve the poor in their home countries for free</span>, the lack of crime, drugs, violence, gangs ?l
</div></div>

The way a hear in Cuba their is a two tier system one for foreigners and one for locals, the one for foreigners is very good and the one for locals is very bad. Locals are restricted in their abilities to travel where foreigners are.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excuse me, but as explained at the nomination meetings under Poder Popular anyone can nominate anyone and all that is needed for that person dissident or not to become a candidate is for someone, anyone to second that nomination.
I said nothing about serious reprisals because there are none. It is a completely democratic process.
As already explained, the revolution is very popular in Cuba. Dissenters, those opposed to the socialist system are about as popular in Cuba as we communists are here in the United States where we represent about 3% of the population.
If we had Poder Popular in the United States and I, a known communist, wanted to become the representative for my neighborhood and completely change what exists, just how could I get anyone to nominate me?
Even if I could get nominated and seconded, how many people in my district would want me, an enemy of the political and economic systems here, as their representative?
The situation for your so-called dissidents is no different in Cuba. They are sometimes tolerated but not listened to by many Cubans who as said, are dedicated to THEIR revolution. </div></div>

check out http://www.cpusa.org/ and Eugene debs socialist movement that has met with lots of success.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have only seen your claim that this is so. It runs contrary to the spirit of the revolution wherein children are revered as the future of Cuba.
How would people running child prostitution in Cuba evade 1) the police 2) the block committees, 3) the school authorities and 4) the family doctors for these children ?
F:
Prison sentences were increased for the corruption of minors in an effort to stop the activities of sex offenders and pedophiles. The penalty for pedophilia was set at fifteen to thirty years.

J: Again, nothing here on child prostitution in Cuba.
I'll do an extensive Goggle search on it after posting this and will get back if I find info from a valid source that contradicts me.</div></div>

You are free to live in denial, but if they have laws on the books and they are increasing the prison terms for such behavior then it means it is an increasing problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J: Okay now we're down to Cubans being regarded as prisoners in a gulag.
If that's how you think, then we definitely have differing views on what the Cuban revolution is and what it has done for the Cuban people. </div></div>

There you go putting words in my mouth - did I say that Cubans are living in a gulag??? No I was trying to show the importance of the right to freedom of movement.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What colonialism and neo-colonialism has done to African nations is significant and a major factor in today's problems but as long as there is corrupt party electoral systems and the totally corrupting force of capitalism riding herd on that government Zimbabwe will never see serious change. I know you hope for better but history should adequately show you the folly of that thinking.
Obama was supposed to be President Change too.</div></div>

MUGABE HAS ALREADY CREATED MAJOR CHANGE IN ZIMBABWE.....you are free to continue in your self denial.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J: Africans have fallen for multi-party electoral systems that are undemocratic and corrupt.
Africans have adopted capitalism whole hog.
You let me know when either of those things are thrown out and I'll start thinking that Robert Mugabe is serious.</div></div>

Like I said I do not watch the system used but what is actually being done.
So if the wealth is redistributed under a socialist communist one party system or capitalist multi-party system is of little matter...what matters is that it has been done.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now you're saying that Cuba is a dictatorship?.
Now you are totally ignoring the democracy of Poder Popular after having said that you would like the most democratic feature of it which is throwing political parties out of the nomination process and having the voters themselves choose their own candidates.
The low crime rate in Cuba is due to many factors that come with a socialist economy and a democratic government. Cuba is not a police state much as those who oppose the revolution would have us think.</div></div>

CPSU was also a democracy


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under capitalism, much of the wealth of a country is concentrated at the top in big corporations, a small percentage of very wealthy people and in poor countries this results in poverty rates that can top 80% in the poorest countries and only the richest countries can get poverty levels down to 10%. In the U.S the poverty rate is about 25% due to the great disparity in personal wealth and the high living costs, high unemployment, racism etc.</div></div>

If wealth equates power how different is that from what is happening in Cuba?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Capitalism is based on worship of money.
When money has top priority the poor die by the millions.
This is not theory.
This is the reality that evidences itself most disastrously in sub_Saharan Africa.
I would have thought you'd have notice by now.
But then you think it's all based on racism so let me ask you, were racism to vanish tomorrow would poverty disappear in Africa.?
In the U.S while a disproportionate number of blacks are poor due to racism, the numbers of white poor far outnumber them by 8 times or so.
If there were no racism there would still be the same number of poor people because it is entirely related to the inequities inherent in capitalism .</div></div>

Yes if racism all over the world was to disappear, yes poverty as we know it would be no longer.
The poverty of whites in America is a result of Racism
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I cannot explain Economics 101 here but suffice to say that since independent workers do not exploit other people they are not practicing capitalism.
You'd need a deeper background on what comprises capitalism, socialism and communism to fully understand this.</div></div>

The prostitutes are being exploited by the hoteliers so as to bring in &quot;johns&quot; so as to increase profits whilst the prostitutes are exploiting themselves to make a profit.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When the Soviet Union collapsed and aid to Cuba was ended the Cubans had to resort to some desperate measures to hold things together. What are you asking specifically?</div></div>

The acceptance of the capitalist almighty dollar as legal tender, the increase reliance on tourism and prostitution


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cuban socialism is still here and doing fine some 20 years after losing Soviet aid.
They survived and adapted to the new conditions.
The strict socialist economy is still a strict socialist economy.
What is your point? </div></div>

They have not change and accepted some forms of capitalism?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Are you now saying that the Cuban people are forced to vote?
There's a thought not very friendly to the reality of the Cuban revolution.
Since you know next-to-nothing about the Cuban electoral system I'll take the time to explain the illogic of that statement.
In Cuban elections as everywhere, the voter ids given a secret ballot to mark and put into voting boxes guarded by....the Cuban equivalent of Boy Scouts.
Anyone who wants to can write in anything they want or deface the ballot and put it in the box and no one is there to check his or her vote out.
So even if someone were watching to see who votes and who doesn't, they would be unable to see how they voted or if they left their ballot blank or wrote &quot;Raul sucks&quot; on it. In the 1997-98 elections some 3% of the ballots were defaced by voters.
All this is in the book by Arnold August</div></div>

No...Just who is eligible to be nominated.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here you're saying that the U.S. war against Cuba IS a cold war or was part of the old cold war.
During the past 50 years the U.S has introduced Dengue Fever, tobacco disease, swine disease, to Cuba, bombed hotels in Havana, invaded at the Bay of Pig/Playa Giron and economically blockaded the island.
is that your idea of cold war tactics?
The war is why certain rights have had to be restricted in Cuba as rights often are in countries under threat.
Have you been through a airport search in the United States lately?</div></div>

Is war with Cuba similar to Iraq or Afghanistan? so are Hot wars.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's wrap this up.
Cuban democratic socialism works to the satisfaction of the Cuban people.
They think it works.
Capitalism and multi-party politics are what is ruining the Third World and it cannot be reformed to the point that it can do anywhere near what the Cuban revolution has done for all Cubans. The fact that such systems have never been reformed successfully to any great degree is all the proof you should need to understand this.

I know you disagree with me now but I am sure that in another 20 years or so of disappointment you'll see what I see.
</div></div>

No I wont, I am satisfied with Cuba, if the Cuban people are and applaud all its success. My Major grouse with Cuba is its restrictions on travel, press freedoms and dissent
You have state that it works in those Scandinavian countries and I have shown you where changes are occurring in Zimbabwe

franksterr
11-21-2010, 12:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">About Fidel having access to the treasury and or being a very rich man.
This how the story was followed up by the left and Fidel.


Allow Me To Explain
Is Fidel Castro one of the richest men in the world?

Posted in Cuba, Fidel Castro by amte on October 3, 2009
In 2005, American business and financial magazine Forbes listed Castro among the world’s richest people, with an estimated net worth of $550 million. The estimates claimed that the Cuban leader’s personal wealth was nearly double that of Britain’s Queen Elizabeth II, despite evidence from diplomats and businessmen that the Cuban leader’s personal life was notably austere. Forbes later increased the estimates to $900 million, adding rumors of large cash stashes in Switzerland. The magazine offered no proof at all of this information.

Of course it was all entirely bogus – the bunk methodology they used was based on the lie that Fidel Castro owns everything in the entire country of Cuba. Even in their article they admitted their “estimate” was “more art than science” — or in other words, [censored].

Fidel’s response?

“PRESIDENT Fidel Castro has challenged and called on Bush, the CIA, the 33 U.S. intelligence agencies, the thousands of banks in the world and the ‘servants’ of Forbes magazine, which claims that Fidel has a fortune of $900 million, to prove that he has even one dollar in an overseas account.

“In exchange for just one shred of evidence, he said that he would offer them everything that they have tried and failed to do over almost half a century, during which time they have tried to destroy the Revolution and assassinate him via hundreds of conspiracies. ‘I’m giving you everything you’ve tried,’ he said, ‘and don’t come with your foolishness and wayside stories. Show me an account, of just one dollar,’ he emphasized.

“If they can prove that I have one single dollar, I will resign from all my responsibilities and the duties I am carrying out; they won’t need any more plans or transitions, if they can prove that I have one single dollar,” the revolutionary leader said emphatically.” – Granma newspaper

Later:

“Bush has not uttered a word and neither have the State Department, Congress or the CIA. Only the Nuevo Herald, a Miami newspaper, has tried to defend [the Forbes article] at the request of the Cuban-American mafia [the handful of rich white Cubans who left the country after the revolution because they didn’t want to be equal with the rest of the people]. This silence by the US Administration demonstrates the extent of its weakness.” – Radio Habana

Even the Miami Herald, a rightwing newspaper with ties to the Cuban-American mafia that is historically hostile to the Cuban Revolution admits that Fidel Castro lives in about the same conditions as everyone else in Cuba. The newspaper has previously printed articles in which it acknowledges that “The houses of Fidel and Raúl are large but simply appointed…. The living room of [Fidel’s] house is described by visitors as furnished with simple wood and leather sofas and chairs and Cuban handicrafts…. The only luxury visible to visitors is a big-screen television….”

and then there's this:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/fidel/castro-family.htm </div></div>

He does not need an overseas a/c... The Cuban treasury is his to plunder at will.....I only mention the Forbes/Fortune article only to prove to you that it has been plastered over the western media....contrary to your contention that that has never happened.

johnnycakes
11-21-2010, 07:12 PM
Again, if you choose to believe that Cuba's wealth like the wealth in countries run by the sort of kleptocrats that run corrupt capitalist countries in Africa will wind up in Fidel's personal Swiss bank accounts because you choose to believe that Fidel like all those leaders is corrupt then go to it.

Do note however, that Forbes magazine is what ? A magazine by and for capitalists.
They would not have a kind word for anything to do with the Cuban revolution in any event and that Forbes was the sole source of that sort of idea.


You evidently missed this little note in the article I posted:

&quot;The magazine offered no proof at all of this information.&quot;


It has no proof, you have no proof only the belief that because all the leaders you know who are running corrupt capitalist countries wind up running off with the national treasury and retiring in the south of France.

As the rebuttal stated, Fidel leads an &quot;austere&quot; life.

I will offer you the same bet I made a while ago here.

Any amount of money you'd care to wager that when Fidel dies it will be as he said with him possessing whatever he has in his pockets at the time.
Any amount of money you'd be willing to lose betting that you will ever hear about money in Swiss banks belonging to Fidel.

How about US $1000.00 to start?
I'm willing to put that much in escrow right now.
That's how sure I am of what I say, what Fidel says is the truth.

You can bet relying on the word of Forbes Magazine if you are sure of what you claim.

franksterr
11-21-2010, 07:42 PM
johnnycakes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, if you choose to believe that Cuba's wealth like the wealth in countries run by the sort of kleptocrats that run corrupt capitalist countries in Africa will wind up in Fidel's personal Swiss bank accounts because you choose to believe that Fidel like all those leaders is corrupt then go to it.</div></div>

You obviously miss my point Fidel has no need of Swiss bank a/c, they Cuban treasury is his to use or abuse.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do note however, that Forbes magazine is what ? A magazine by and for capitalists.
They would not have a kind word for anything to do with the Cuban revolution in any event and that Forbes was the sole source of that sort of idea.</div></div>

Do you have a kind word for capitalists???


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You evidently missed this little note in the article I posted:

&quot;The magazine offered no proof at all of this information.&quot;


It has no proof, you have no proof only the belief that because all the leaders you know who are running corrupt capitalist countries wind up running off with the national treasury and retiring in the south of France.</div></div>

You think Fidel is going to open up his economy to western scrutiny????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As the rebuttal stated, Fidel leads an &quot;austere&quot; life.

I will offer you the same bet I made a while ago here.

Any amount of money you'd care to wager that when Fidel dies it will be as he said with him possessing whatever he has in his pockets at the time.
Any amount of money you'd be willing to lose betting that you will ever hear about money in Swiss banks belonging to Fidel.</div></div>

You are applying a capitalist rubric to a communist, how many communist you know die leaving millions in Swiss bank a/c?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about US $1000.00 to start?
I'm willing to put that much in escrow right now.
That's how sure I am of what I say, what Fidel says is the truth.

You can bet relying on the word of Forbes Magazine if you are sure of what you claim. </div></div>

Castro has just passed it on to Raul, he now holds the key to the Cuban treasury

johnnycakes
11-21-2010, 08:16 PM
F:
Could you recommend an unbiased site?

J:
An unbiased site? No. A biased website with more truth in it than any you can come up with as regards world affairs, yes: ZNet because the truth does have a left bias.
On Latin America also COHA and NACLA.
This is most important. DO NOT TAKE MY WORD OR ANY SITE&quot;S WORD ON ANYTHING until you have been able to cross reference the specific subject matter at numerous RELIABLE sources.

Your submission of the now thoroughly discredited Forbes article is a good example of not doing the necessary research to verify the truth of that story.
Quote:
In order to see through the BS, you have to have ALL or a lot of the information on a given topic and in a historical setting in order to be able to differentiate between fact and fiction.


F:
I think I do.

J:
I KNOW you don't.






F:
Well what would you expect, if they are saying things that do not reflect good on Cuba or Castro.... What is important is if they are true.

J:
In order to find if the things they said are true or not requires a prior knowledge of past lies and an extensive knowledge of (among other facets of Cuban life) how their electoral system works and IMO less than 1% of the readers of this forum and the entire population of the United States has any idea of how Cuba's electoral system works. About the same percentage knows the difference between communism and socialism.
The people under the sway of the Western anti-Cuban media are not only uninformed about Cuba but disinformed; that is, deliberately misinformed (lied to) by the corporate media .
How can there be any objective thought on Cuba when all that is published is disinformation like the Forbes article.
They had no proof that what they claimed was true but they printed it woith the full expectation that it would be believed because Fidel has ben demonized for so long that it would be difficult for the duped to believe it was NOT true.


F:
Years ago....
I an well aware of US foreign policy vis-a-vis Cuba.


J: For clarity could you please tell me what you think U.S foreign policy toward Cuba is and why it is what it is?


F:
Yes it does sound like the CPSU and it never campaign only recruitment drives.

J: I assume CPSU is the defunct Communist Party Soviet Union.
The CPSU was Stalinist. The PCC is Fidelista. Fidel kicked out the Stalinists to form the PCC and its ends and means are worlds apart from Stalinism.



F:
In the US during and after the war of independence they were many pro-British politicians. In Zimbabwe there is Tsvangiria who is facilitating the return of white rule.

J:
You are incorrect in both things. The new United States saw a 10% population drop as those who favored the Crown left for Canada and England or were killed in active fighting.
There will be no return to white rule in Zimbabwe unless there is a complete lack of democracy.

F:
Where are the legal dissenters?

J: What is a &quot;legal dissenter&quot; in your definition? Someone who gripes but without breaking any laws? I can't answer this as it is too fuzzy.

F:
ns - The redistribution of wealth has already been passed in Zimbabwe, so now its a matter of keeping the puppets out of power long enough for them to be instituted.

J:
I'll believe it when I see it.


F:
Cuba prevents its citizen for leaving to go anywhere.

J:
I Googled Restrictions on Cubans traveling and found ONE site that talked about it and that one said that in 2008 Raul was proposing an end to many of the travel restrictions except on medical and other professionals who went to graduate school on public money and then wanted to leave instead of paying it back in service as they are all supposed to do. Sort of like running out on student loans would be in the United States.

All other sites dealt with the United States restrictions on both Cuban-Americans and U.S. citizens being forbidden to go to Cuba.
If you can come up with some academic sites or both pro and anti Cuban sites that talk about the restrictions on Cuban citizens I'll be glad to look at them.
I just wonder how you happen to be so sure about this when I haven't heard much of anything beyond the restrictions on Cuban-schooled professionals.


F:
The US never prevented My Brother from visiting Cuba.
J: Then your brother is not a U.S. citizen all of whom are forbidden by law from visiting Cuba for the past 40 or 50 years.
Google the U.S. State Department website on Cuba and you will plainly see that U.S. citizens are barred from travel to Cuba.
The government does not want its citizens to see the truth about Cuba or to see that what they've been told all these years is a big lie..


F:
So it works in those European countries.
Racism is the only reason it does not work in so called third world countries.

J:
Believe that if you'd like but poverty, neo-colonialism in the guise of the Western fixtures like multi-party electoral systems are just a few reasons and most of all, is that modern-day capitalism does not work in poor, underdeveloped countries except for those at the top of the heap.
If Robert Mugabe intends to redistribute the wealth of the country then he is talking about some form of socialism and if he tries that, he's a dead man walking.



F:
The people running the system are always the one with power and often with the money in every system of governance.
J; And in all those capitalist countries, neither the capitalist economies nor the multi-party electoral systems EVER reformed to the point that it makes much difference in the numbers and conditions of the poor.
Show me a couple where this has happened if you'd care to rebut this point.


F;
I have provided you with just such examples and you refuse to admit them
Fortune Magazine had him listed as a wealthy man to the tune of 900 million.

J:
Forbes is one totally unreliable source for your information. Please come up with any other source that will verify or back this claim that does not originate in south Florida.


F:
I said I have read not studied the experts on Cuba...
You refuse to accept the fact that the community police dictates who are acceptable candidates/nominates.

J:
And your source for this piece of disinformation is..... ???
Every source I have found says clearly that candidates for representatives in Cuba are selected by the voters from amongst themselves and anyone observing this including international observers have verified that this is how it is done.
Please produce a reliable source for what you say is so.
Secondly, who are the &quot;community police &quot; ?
Are you referring to the CDRs? The so-called &quot;block committees&quot;?
They have no police powers.

F:
The way a hear in Cuba their is a two tier system one for foreigners and one for locals, the one for foreigners is very good and the one for locals is very bad. Locals are restricted in their abilities to travel where foreigners are.

J:
Are you talking about the health care system here? If so you'd do well to check WHO and other NGO 's statistics on the health of ordinary Cubans as well as the U.N's Human Development Index to see that Cubans get healthcare that most poor Africans can only dream of.


F:
check out http://www.cpusa.org/ and Eugene debs socialist movement that has met with lots of success.

J;
Eugene Debs ran a LONG time ago and well before the Cold War and the massive anti-socialist propaganda program began in the United States. He couldn't get 1% of the vote never mind the necessary signatures to get on the ballot today. Ditto the CPUSA who are political; relics from the days when the Soviet Union existed.

F:
You are free to live in denial, but if they have laws on the books and they are increasing the prison terms for such behavior then it means it is an increasing problem
J:
As I said, anytime you have some sort of proof of child prostitution being anything but an extremely rare thing in Cuba, please produce it here.
Increased prison terms for such offenses only means that the Cubans will not tolerate what is a worldwide problem in poor capitalist countries like Thailand, the Philippines and elsewhere.
As I said, I read everything I can on Cuba and the problem of child prostitution has never come up. Adult prostitution became a problem only when they opened the tourist sectors.

johnnycakes
11-21-2010, 08:38 PM
F;
You obviously miss my point Fidel has no need of Swiss bank a/c, they Cuban treasury is his to use or abuse.

J:
And you obviously miss the point that Fidel is a principled socialist and has no need of wealth. He chooses to live simply and thereby set the good example.
His needs are provided for and he lives a simple life. There is no evidence to the contrary.
No palaces, no Rolls Royce limousines, nothing you see in the lifestyles of leaders in the capitalist countries. If you have some proof that this is not so and that he has access to the treasury please produce the source for this information which I have never heard or seen any other place.

F:
Do you have a kind word for capitalists???

J:
Only dead ones. That however, has nothing to do with the untruth of the Forbes article. You will find the Forbes claim a complete fraud. It helps sell the magazine maybe but you will not find any scholastic source corroborating what Forbs or you claim, that Fidel has ready access to the Cuban treasury.
It is anti-Cuban propaganda and crude baseless and unbelievable propaganda at that.



F:
You think Fidel is going to open up his economy to western scrutiny????

J:
The question is whether the Western corporate press is truthful vis a vis Cuba and Fidel. If you choose to believe the corporate media, you do so at the risk of looking the fool.

Quote:
As the rebuttal stated, Fidel leads an &quot;austere&quot; life.

I will offer you the same bet I made a while ago here.

Any amount of money you'd care to wager that when Fidel dies it will be as he said with him possessing whatever he has in his pockets at the time.
Any amount of money you'd be willing to lose betting that you will ever hear about money in Swiss banks belonging to Fidel.


You are applying a capitalist rubric to a communist, how many communist you know die leaving millions in Swiss bank a/c?

J: Okay then, if Fidel is corrupt and has ready access to the treasury why is he not using that access and living like a king? Do you have any proof that he is living anything other than a simple &quot;austere&quot; life in retirement?
If so produce it.

Quote:
How about US $1000.00 to start?
I'm willing to put that much in escrow right now.
That's how sure I am of what I say, what Fidel says is the truth.

You can bet relying on the word of Forbes Magazine if you are sure of what you claim.


Castro has just passed it on to Raul, he now holds the key to the Cuban treasury.


So Raul now is the crook ?

Take me up on my bet.
If you think Fidel or Raul (I'll include Raul in the bet as well)
is in any way looting the national treasury and you can prove it get together $1000.00 and we'll set up an escrow account to be paid within an agreed upon time to whichever of us is correct in this &quot;looting the treasury&quot; debate.

I fear that because all you've seen in and around Zimbabwe and much of Africa and the rest of the poor Third World is corruption that Cuba and its leaders are just one more corrupt system.
You can't believe that there actually are principled leaders in Cuba can you?

I'll have to get you a picture of Fidel and Diogenes hanging out together.


_________________________

franksterr
11-22-2010, 08:47 AM
johnnycakes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An unbiased site? No. A biased website with more truth in it than any you can come up with as regards world affairs, yes: ZNet because the truth does have a left bias.
On Latin America also COHA and NACLA.
This is most important. DO NOT TAKE MY WORD OR ANY SITE&quot;S WORD ON ANYTHING until you have been able to cross reference the specific subject matter at numerous RELIABLE sources.</div></div>

Thanks all websites are biased.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your submission of the now thoroughly discredited Forbes article is a good example of not doing the necessary research to verify the truth of that story.
</div></div>

The Fact remains that some are of the opinion and it was in the Media which runs contrary to your assertion that none existed.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In order to find if the things they said are true or not requires a prior knowledge of past lies and an extensive knowledge of (among other facets of Cuban life) how their electoral system works and IMO less than 1% of the readers of this forum and the entire population of the United States has any idea of how Cuba's electoral system works. About the same percentage knows the difference between communism and socialism.
The people under the sway of the Western anti-Cuban media are not only uninformed about Cuba but disinformed; that is, deliberately misinformed (lied to) by the corporate media .
How can there be any objective thought on Cuba when all that is published is disinformation like the Forbes article. </div></div>

What it really requires is for one to visit Cuba and have free access to go and speak with the people where ever they are.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For clarity could you please tell me what you think U.S foreign policy toward Cuba is and why it is what it is?</div></div>

Put basically the US wants regime change in Cuba and a destruction of its socialist ideology.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
J: I assume CPSU is the defunct Communist Party Soviet Union.
The CPSU was Stalinist. The PCC is Fidelista. Fidel kicked out the Stalinists to form the PCC and its ends and means are worlds apart from Stalinism. </div></div>

I was only talking about its similarities, single party, claims democracy and does not campaign.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You are incorrect in both things. The new United States saw a 10% population drop as those who favored the Crown left for Canada and England or were killed in active fighting.
There will be no return to white rule in Zimbabwe unless there is a complete lack of democracy.</div></div>

Tell me is US today pro-British? or is the British pro-US? are the partners in world domination? and imperialism?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J: What is a &quot;legal dissenter&quot; in your definition? Someone who gripes but without breaking any laws? I can't answer this as it is too fuzzy.</div></div>

Sure you cant - to dissent is illegal in Cuba.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I Googled Restrictions on Cubans traveling and found ONE site that talked about it and that one said that in 2008 Raul was proposing an end to many of the travel restrictions except on medical and other professionals who went to graduate school on public money and then wanted to leave instead of paying it back in service as they are all supposed to do. Sort of like running out on student loans would be in the United States.</div></div>

So if he is considering an end to it, that means it is in place.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All other sites dealt with the United States restrictions on both Cuban-Americans and U.S. citizens being forbidden to go to Cuba.
If you can come up with some academic sites or both pro and anti Cuban sites that talk about the restrictions on Cuban citizens I'll be glad to look at them.
I just wonder how you happen to be so sure about this when I haven't heard much of anything beyond the restrictions on Cuban-schooled professionals. </div></div>

Information and the press is free in the US so such info is readily available everywhere, cannot say the same about Cuba.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Then your brother is not a U.S. citizen all of whom are forbidden by law from visiting Cuba for the past 40 or 50 years.
Google the U.S. State Department website on Cuba and you will plainly see that U.S. citizens are barred from travel to Cuba.
The government does not want its citizens to see the truth about Cuba or to see that what they've been told all these years is a big lie..</div></div>

He sure is....


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Believe that if you'd like but poverty, neo-colonialism in the guise of the Western fixtures like multi-party electoral systems are just a few reasons and most of all, is that modern-day capitalism does not work in poor, underdeveloped countries except for those at the top of the heap.
If Robert Mugabe intends to redistribute the wealth of the country then he is talking about some form of socialism and if he tries that, he's a dead man walking. </div></div>

Again its not the system but the people running the system that matters, the US has accept much of socialism in its own way - the new deal, medicaid, unemployment etc ..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J; And in all those capitalist countries, neither the capitalist economies nor the multi-party electoral systems EVER reformed to the point that it makes much difference in the numbers and conditions of the poor.
Show me a couple where this has happened if you'd care to rebut this point.</div></div>

You have already mention the Scandinavian countries.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Forbes is one totally unreliable source for your information. Please come up with any other source that will verify or back this claim that does not originate in south Florida.</div></div>

And If I do, you will only say they are anti-Castro.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your source for this piece of disinformation is..... ???
Every source I have found says clearly that candidates for representatives in Cuba are selected by the voters from amongst themselves and anyone observing this including international observers have verified that this is how it is done.
Please produce a reliable source for what you say is so.
Secondly, who are the &quot;community police &quot; ?
Are you referring to the CDRs? The so-called &quot;block committees&quot;?
They have no police powers.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-style: italic">Thus, whereas 55% of the National Assembly deputies were supposed to be delegates of the Municipal Assemblies, the remaining 45% came from sources other than by popular election, and included Fidel and the whole central government. This ambiguous mechanism allowed to institutionalize the superimposition of the CP (the proximity of the dates of the First CCP Congress and the setting off of Popular Power was no coincidence) and the new state structure. This was reflected in statistics showing that 75% of the municipal delegates being elected every 2 and1/2 years were party members. Almost 100% of the national deputies elected every 5 years were members of the party and of the Communist Youth (UJC)...............Substantive changes were made in the structures of Popular Power. First, the provincial and national delegates would be directly elected by the people. However, the Electoral Law of November 1992 considerably limited the democratic content of these elections: the candidates for delegates to the provincial and national assemblies would not be nominated by the rank and file as was the case of the municipal delegates. <span style="color: #FF0000">Instead, they would be nominated by the &quot;commissions of candidacies&quot; constituted by the &quot;organizations of the masses&quot; and under the leadership of the Cuban Workers'</span> Central. As mentioned before, the organizations of the masses were led by the CCP. The municipal assemblies were supposed <span style="text-decoration: underline">to select from the lists proposed by the commissions of candidacies</span> the exact number of candidates required to fill each and every position. <span style="font-weight: bold">Consequently, the voter's right to direct election was limited to vote only for all the candidates, some of them or none. </span>In order to be elected, each candidate had to obtain more than 50% of the votes.</span>.</div></div>
http://www.isj.org.uk/?id=207

In a nutshell a slate of candidates for nomination is selected by &quot;commissions of candidacies&quot; This body doing the selecting is made up of CP members. Voters then must nominate from the selected list some all or none.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Are you talking about the health care system here? If so you'd do well to check WHO and other NGO 's statistics on the health of ordinary Cubans as well as the U.N's Human Development Index to see that Cubans get healthcare that most poor Africans can only dream of. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">The foreigners-only facilities do a big business in what you might call vanity treatments: Botox, liposuction, and breast implants. Remember, too, that there are many separate, or segregated, facilities on Cuba. People speak of “tourism apartheid.” For example, there are separate hotels, separate beaches, separate restaurants — separate everything. As you can well imagine, this causes widespread resentment in the general population.

The second health-care system is for Cuban elites — the Party, the military, official artists and writers, and so on. In the Soviet Union, these people were called the “nomenklatura.” And their system, like the one for medical tourists, is top-notch.

Then there is the real Cuban system, the one that ordinary people must use — and it is wretched. Testimony and documentation on the subject are vast. Hospitals and clinics are crumbling. Conditions are so unsanitary, patients may be better off at home, whatever home is. If they do have to go to the hospital, they must bring their own bedsheets, soap, towels, food, light bulbs — even toilet paper. And basic medications are scarce. In Sicko, even sophisticated medications are plentiful and cheap. In the real Cuba, finding an aspirin can be a chore. And an antibiotic will fetch a fortune on the black market</span></div></div>
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/health-myth.htm


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Eugene Debs ran a LONG time ago and well before the Cold War and the massive anti-socialist propaganda program began in the United States. He couldn't get 1% of the vote never mind the necessary signatures to get on the ballot today. Ditto the CPUSA who are political; relics from the days when the Soviet Union existed.</div></div>

The CPUSA is still up today and many more socialist organizations in operation today in the US. What is important is that these people are not subject to legal overt repression.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As I said, anytime you have some sort of proof of child prostitution being anything but an extremely rare thing in Cuba, please produce it here.
Increased prison terms for such offenses only means that the Cubans will not tolerate what is a worldwide problem in poor capitalist countries like Thailand, the Philippines and elsewhere.
As I said, I read everything I can on Cuba and the problem of child prostitution has never come up. Adult prostitution became a problem only when they opened the tourist sectors.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">Destination Cuba

COMMERCIAL SEXUAL EXPLOITATION OF CHILDREN IN TOURISM - Expanding tourism, together with other factors, has led to a growth of the leisure infrastructure. In connection with this, there has also been a growth of prostitution and cases of trafficking in humans, promoted by the difficult economic situation of the country since 1990. Every day, new children are driven into prostitution, in order to earn something to contribute to the survival of their family. Many street children are abducted and subsequently become victims of commercial sexual exploitation. In their desperation, some fall for promises of well-paid jobs in the towns and cities. In recent years, the number of children in the towns and cities that are being sexually exploited has increased markedly. The press reports of cases in which foreign tourists have particularly asked for children below the age of 14</span></div></div>
http://www.gvnet.com/childprostitution/Cuba.htm

franksterr
11-22-2010, 09:30 AM
johnnycakes


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And you obviously miss the point that Fidel is a principled socialist and has no need of wealth. He chooses to live simply and thereby set the good example.
His needs are provided for and he lives a simple life. There is no evidence to the contrary.
No palaces, no Rolls Royce limousines, nothing you see in the lifestyles of leaders in the capitalist countries. If you have some proof that this is not so and that he has access to the treasury please produce the source for this information which I have never heard or seen any other place. </div></div>

To maintain the facade as a principled socialist it is necessary for the world to see that he lives an austere life and has no wealth.
Please do not say that I have not provided proof or evidence to the contrary,,,As I have posted websites that presents exactly that . It is fine to say they are anti-Castro, but that is the extent of the evidence I can provide given the media we are using.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you have a kind word for capitalists???

J:
Only dead ones. That however, has nothing to do with the untruth of the Forbes article. You will find the Forbes claim a complete fraud. It helps sell the magazine maybe but you will not find any scholastic source corroborating what Forbs or you claim, that Fidel has ready access to the Cuban treasury.
It is anti-Cuban propaganda and crude baseless and unbelievable propaganda at that.</div></div>

I have scholastic sources claiming that Castro maintains an apartheid system of privilege for the Cuban elite and foreigners and less for the peasants Cubans.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">At present, Cubans suffer another form of apartheid: their own government discriminates against them in favor of foreigners, especially tourists who have privileged access to goods and services (like foods, automobiles, gasoline, beaches, hotels, stores and special restaurants). Since the &quot;dollarization&quot; of the economy in August of 1993, when, incredibly, the American dollar became, in effect, the national currency, only those Cubans who have been able to secure dollars have had access to many of those services or goods, although not to all. This has created great social turmoil because the need to have dollars at any cost has generated corruption, crime, and moral degradation</span></div></div>
http://www2.fiu.edu/~fcf/juanclark.cuba/clark97.humrtscond.html


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The question is whether the Western corporate press is truthful vis a vis Cuba and Fidel. If you choose to believe the corporate media, you do so at the risk of looking the fool.

Quote:
As the rebuttal stated, Fidel leads an &quot;austere&quot; life.

I will offer you the same bet I made a while ago here.

Any amount of money you'd care to wager that when Fidel dies it will be as he said with him possessing whatever he has in his pockets at the time.
Any amount of money you'd be willing to lose betting that you will ever hear about money in Swiss banks belonging to Fidel.</div></div>

Thats a fools wager as Fidel has no need of Swiss bank a/c!

You are applying a capitalist rubric to a communist, how many communist you know die leaving millions in Swiss bank a/c?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Okay then, if Fidel is corrupt and has ready access to the treasury why is he not using that access and living like a king? Do you have any proof that he is living anything other than a simple &quot;austere&quot; life in retirement?</div></div>

If so produce it.
I have already provided you with websites that purports to show how the Castros enjoy their largess, you have label them anti-Castro.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can bet relying on the word of Forbes Magazine if you are sure of what you claim.</div></div>
That was not the purpose for which I cited the article, the sole purpose for which I cited the article was to show that they were press release stating that Castro had Millions, which ran contrary to what you stated that there was none.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So Raul now is the crook ?

Take me up on my bet.
If you think Fidel or Raul (I'll include Raul in the bet as well)
is in any way looting the national treasury and you can prove it get together $1000.00 and we'll set up an escrow account to be paid within an agreed upon time to whichever of us is correct in this &quot;looting the treasury&quot; debate.</div></div>

I called neither of them crooks thats your words.
Raul has inherited his brothers mantle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I fear that because all you've seen in and around Zimbabwe and much of Africa and the rest of the poor Third World is corruption that Cuba and its leaders are just one more corrupt system.
You can't believe that there actually are principled leaders in Cuba can you?

I'll have to get you a picture of Fidel and Diogenes hanging out together.
</div></div>

Whether or not Fidel is corrupt is a decision I have not made, as that has to do with the legal system in Cuba, which i do not know enough about to make a decision....suffice to say some of the things he is said to have instituted is a least Immoral on humanitarian grounds - That is not a condemnation but a recognition

johnnycakes
11-22-2010, 11:10 AM
Franksterr,


F:
To maintain the facade as a principled socialist it is necessary for the world to see that he lives an austere life and has no wealth.
Please do not say that I have not provided proof or evidence to the contrary,,,As I have posted websites that presents exactly that . It is fine to say they are anti-Castro, but that is the extent of the evidence I can provide given the media we are using.

J:
So... you are saying that Fidel, in order to fool the world into thinking he is a principled socialist, is living a simple life ?
Think about how little sense that makes.
If he were a dictator like Duvalier or those now in exile with billions in the south of France and elsewhere, why would he care what his own people and the world thought
of him?
Can you think of any person who ever led a country for so long who is living as simply as Fidel is ?
And sorry &quot;That's all I have for proof &quot; is not good enough.
That's all you have because, for whatever reason, you choose not to look into this any further.
In situations like this I have always advised people to pick one point like whether or not Fidel is living like a king and that one point only so that they are not overwhelmed by the task and use Google and all other search engines to find everything on the subject and then sort out the truth from amongst the hundreds of sites.
You seemed to have pounced on the Forbes article alone for what you already believe and that is poor research .


I have scholastic sources claiming that Castro maintains an apartheid system of privilege for the Cuban elite and foreigners and less for the peasants Cubans.
Quote:
At present, Cubans suffer another form of apartheid: their own government discriminates against them in favor of foreigners, especially tourists who have privileged access to goods and services (like foods, automobiles, gasoline, beaches, hotels, stores and special restaurants). Since the &quot;dollarization&quot; of the economy in August of 1993, when, incredibly, the American dollar became, in effect, the national currency, only those Cubans who have been able to secure dollars have had access to many of those services or goods, although not to all. This has created great social turmoil because the need to have dollars at any cost has generated corruption, crime, and moral degradation

http://www2.fiu.edu/~fcf/juanclark.cuba/clark97.humrtscond.html

J:
The date of this article is?
(The link doesn't work as posted so I will hand type it in and get back to you on what I think of it.)



Quote:
The question is whether the Western corporate press is truthful vis a vis Cuba and Fidel. If you choose to believe the corporate media, you do so at the risk of looking the fool.

F:
Thats a fools wager as Fidel has no need of Swiss bank a/c!

J:

I take your refusal to bet as an admission that you doubt what you say you believe.

F:
You are applying a capitalist rubric to a communist, how many communist you know die leaving millions in Swiss bank a/c?

J:
You answered your own question. Principled socialists don't have millions just as Fidel does not have millions. But... I can clearly see that you are both anti-socialist and pro- capitalist despite the misery in evidence all over BLACK ruled Africa caused by the disparity in wealth due to capitalism.
You also seem to favor multi-party politics which are universally corrupt.
That mindset precludes objectivity and tends toward the right wing sites that you depend on for your anti revolutionary posts.
F:
I have already provided you with websites that purports to show how the Castros enjoy their largess, you have label them anti-Castro.

J:
You have produced a long discredited Forbes article the contents of which have never been backed up by any other source. That is because the article is not credible to the rest of the very pro-U.S media. It is used as an anti Fidel device only by those on the lunatic right because that's all they can produce to back them up.
Did you know that Fidel sleeps with a copy of &quot; Mein Kampff&quot; under his peso-stuffed pillow ?


F;
the article, the sole purpose for which I cited the article was to show that they were press release stating that Castro had Millions, which ran contrary to what you stated that there was none.

J;
The Forbes article was not a press release from a news source. It was an article in a magazine that features stories meant to sell the magazine.
No news sources said that that story was true. They only reported that Forbes had made this allegation.

F:
I called neither of them crooks. That's your words.
Raul has inherited his brothers mantle

J:
Are you saying that Raul was not voted into office under the rules of Poder Popular ?
Never mind. Do not answer this. It is not a fair question since you have no knowledge of Cuba's electoral system.

F:
Whether or not Fidel is corrupt is a decision I have not made, as that has to do with the legal system in Cuba, which i do not know enough about to make a decision....suffice to say some of the things HE IS SAID to have instituted is a least Immoral on humanitarian grounds - That is not a condemnation but a recognition.

J:
The National Assembly in Cuba which is the parallel to the Congress in the U.S. has SUPREME power over any bill or law passed in Cuba.
Neither Fidel nor Raul have the power to pass any laws. They can propose them but they have to be voted upon by the National Assembly to become law.

I highlighted &quot;he is said &quot; above to point out that those who say HE, like you, do not understand nor seemingly WANT to understand how the Cuban government works as that would undermine your beliefs..

I'll try to get a simplified printout of how the Cuban electoral system (Poder Popular)
works and post it.

johnnycakes
11-22-2010, 11:17 AM
This is the best I could do in a short time.
This came from a site called Hello Cuba .

I
Cuban Political System Electoral System

Electoral History and Process National Assembly

Council of State Council of Ministers

Provincial, Municipal Assemblies Judiciary System



CUBAN POLITICAL SYSTEM



Cuba is a republic with a centralized socialist system of government closely identified with the workers.

The structure of the State of the Republic of Cuba is as follows:

1. National Assembly of People's Power
2. Council of State
3. Council of Ministers
4. Provincial and Municipal Governments
5. Judiciary System

Political power rests with the National Assembly of People's Power, which nominates the Council of Ministers, the highest executive body. Its executive committee is composed of the president, the first vice-president and the vice-presidents of the Council of Ministers. Since

The National Assembly of People's Power is composed of deputies elected by secret and direct popular vote, for periods of five years. It sits regularly twice a year. Between sittings of the Assembly the 31-member Council of State, elected from members of the National Assembly, takes over its function.

The members of the National Assembly elect provincial and regional executive committees.

Municipal elections are held every two and half years, while Provincial and National elections, every five years.

ELECTORAL SYSTEM



The Cuban democratic system is regulated by Chapter XIV of the Constitution of the Republic, which establishes that in every election and referendum the vote is free, equal and secret. Each voter has the right to only one vote. All Cubans 16 years old and above have the right to vote.

All citizens, men and women, who fully enjoy their political rights can be elected, including the members of the Armed Forces and other military institutions.

For its political and administrative division, Cuba has 14 provinces and 169 municipalities. These are in turn divided into 13,865 electoral constituencies, which are the bases for the elections. The voters directly propose the candidates and elect their Representatives to the Municipal Assemblies of the People's Power.

ELECTORAL HISTORY AND PROCESS



The National Assembly of Peoples Power (Parliament), the highest legislative power, is elected every five years. From its members the Council of State is elected, which acts on behalf of the National Assembly, between sessions. The National Assembly also appoints the Council of Ministers. In 1992, the Parliament approved changes to the electoral system, which would strengthen public control over the government. Henceforth, the deputies to the National Assembly and the delegates to the Provincial Assembly were to be elected through free and direct ballot.

People's Councils were added to the governmental structure in 1988 and were renewed in 1993. Delegates are elected at the constituency level, they represent the area in which they work and have authority to develop the production and service industries, and to meet the people's needs.

Municipal Administrative Councils consist of elected representatives who work with delegates from social and economic organizations. These Councils can demand that these organizations fulfill their duties to the community.

Ricardo Alarcon, president of the National Assembly, believes that the democratic nature of the National Assembly has been improved, since to be elected you must be nominated by your community. Inherent in the system is the voter's right to recall delegates who are not fulfilling their mandate. This in conjunction with the fact that 99% of those eligible voted on February 24th 1993 reflects the people's active participation in their election process.

Nomination Assemblies are convened within constituencies to propose and elect candidates. There is no intervention by the Communist Party in the process. The Candidacy Commission draws up lists of candidates for delegates to the Provincial Assemblies and for deputies to the National Assembly. These Commissions are made up of representatives of trade unions, students, farmers and women's groups.

In 1998 were elected to the 5th Legislature 601 deputies, among them 282, representing the 46.92%, are base delegates, 145 work in centers of production and services, 31 are linked to the health system, 33 to the educational system, 26 to research institutes, 30 come from trade union, 25 from mass and social organizations, 7 are students, 3 are religious ministers, 14 are writers, artists and culture workers, 16 come from mass media, 35 are members of the armed forces, 67 are officials of the Communist Party and the Union of Communist Youth. The 27.62 % of the Deputies are women and 4.33% are young people under 30 years.

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF THE PEOPLE'S POWER



The Assembly is the only in the Republic that is invested with constituent and legislative authority. It holds two regular sessions a year, which are public unless the Assembly itself votes to hold them behind closed doors for reasons of state.

The Assembly, a one-chamber Parliament, originated from the nation-wide elections held in 1976, with a turn-out, in the first electoral round, of 95.2% of the voters and of 94.9% in the second round. Elected officials, according to the procedures established by law, met for the first time on December 2, that year, thus formally setting up the Cuban Parliament.

The Constitution of the Republic of Cuba, approved in a Referendum on February 14, 1976 when 98% of the voters turned out, empowered the National Assembly as the supreme body of State power, representing and expressing the sovereign will of all the people.

Its deputies are elected every five years, and among them they elect their President, Vice President and Secretary, as well as the 31 members of the Council of State, whose President is the Head of State and Government. However, the Council of State must report to the National Assembly on all its work and tasks. The National Assembly from among its members elects the 31 members of the Council of State; their terms expire when a new Assembly is elected.

The National Assembly has the power to amend the Constitution, pass, amend, and repeal laws, debate and approved national plans for economic development, the State budget, credit and financial programs, the guidelines for domestic and foreign policies, as well as to elect the Council of Ministers, the Presidency, the members of the Supreme Court and the Attorney General Office of the Republic.

It, too, hears the reports from national government and administration agencies and can also grant amnesties. Its members do not receive any economic or personal perquisites and carry out their legislative duties together with their usual work, for which they get their salaries.

The National Assembly convenes twice a year in ordinary periods of sessions. It has, though, permanent commissions to look after issues of legislative interest.

Among its permanent or temporary commissions are those in charge of issues concerning the economy, the sugar industry, food production, industries, transportation and communications, constructions, foreign affairs, public health, defense and interior order.

The National Assembly also has permanent departments that oversee the work of the Commissions, Local Assemblies of the People's Power, International Relations, Judicial Affairs and the Administration.

COUNCIL OF STATE



This collegiate body is the highest representative of the Cuban state in national and international matters. The Council of State represents the National Assembly of the People's Power (a one-chamber Parliament) when the legislative house is in recess, it puts into practice its agreements and does any other work the Assembly may assign it.

Functions of the Council of State:

Convenes the National Assembly's extraordinary sessions

Fixes the date for Parliament elections

Issues decrees-law when the National Assembly is not in session

Makes general and mandatory interpretations of existing laws, when necessary

Takes the legislative initiative

Does whatever is necessary to hold referendum when the National Assembly so decides it

Calls for national mobilization when the country's defense if so required and takes on the power of declaring war in case of aggression or of negotiating peace when the National Assembly is not in session and it cannot be summoned on urgent and safety bases

Replaces, at the President's request, the members of the Council of Ministers when the National Assembly is in recess

Gives general instructions to the courts through the Governing Council of the People's Supreme Court

Gives instructions to the Attorney General Office of the Republic

The National Assembly elects the Council of State from among its members and the elected body must report to the legislative body on all its work.

The President of the Council of State is the Head of Government and State.

COUNCIL OF MINISTERS



The Council of Ministers is Cuba's top executive and administrative body and as such it is the Republic's Government. The Head of State and Government and the First Vice President chair it, and it includes other vice presidents, the secretary, the ministers and the administrators of national agencies.

The Council's most important body is its Executive Committee, chaired by the President, the First Vice President and the other vice presidents, who control and coordinate the work of the ministries and the administration's central bodies.

The Council is responsible of putting into practice the agreements the National Assembly reaches on the country's political, economic, cultural, scientific and social endeavor. It also proposes general plans for economic and social development and once passed by the National Assembly it directs and oversees their implementation.

It also directs the country's foreign policy and its relations with other governments; approves international treaties before passing them over for ratification of the Council of State; directs and oversees foreign trade; elaborates the State budget and watches over its implementation. The Council of Ministers enforces laws and puts into effect agreements the National Assembly reaches and the laws and decrees the Council State passes.

It must report periodically on all its work to the National Assembly.

Its President, the First Vice President, six Vice Presidents, the Secretary, and 27 ministers head the Council of Ministers.

PROVINCIAL AND MUNICIPAL ASSEMBLIES



Cuba is divided in 14 provinces, a special municipality under the supervision of the central government and 169 municipalities subordinate to their respective provincial authorities.

The Assemblies of representatives of the People's Power are the top political bodies of power of the State at municipal and provincial levels according to the Constitution.

Local officials have the highest authority for exercising their state functions. They hold local governments and through the bodies of power they create they run production and economic enterprises and the services, and try to meet the health, economic, cultural, educational and recreation needs of the people under their jurisdiction.

These provincial and municipal governments also contribute to the development and implementations of economic, social and cultural plans within their territories, which are not directly subordinate to them. By law, for the exercise of their functions the local Assemblies rely on the initiative and participation of the people and work closely with social and political organizations.

They are also represented in the People's Councils, set up in cities, towns, neighborhoods, villages and rural areas, with the authority to carry out their functions in their localities and are an extension of the governing bodies of the People's Power.

The members of the People's Councils come from the representatives elected at the local constituencies, and they should elect their leaders. Members of the most important local organizations and institutions can also be part of them.

Once set up, the Municipal Assemblies (21 days after the representatives are elected) and Provincial bodies (15 days later) choose from among their members by secret and direct vote their presidents and vice presidents, who immediately take on their posts.

Only the voters can recall a delegate, and they may exercise this night at any time. Each Assembly elects the President and the Vice-president of the Government.

JUDICIARY SYSTEM



Judicial power rests with the People's Supreme Court, which is elected by, and accountable to, the National Assembly. All judges, from the highest to the lowest, are elected by the respective Popular Power Assemblies; in other words, the Supreme Court judges are elected by the National Assembly; the provincial judges by provincial assemblies and the municipal judges by municipal assemblies.

The People's Supreme Court comprises a president, a vice president, and all professional and lay judges and is structured as follows: the Whole, the State Council, criminal, civil, administrative, labor, crimes-against-the-state and military courts.

The judicial system is based on the principle that all judges, professional or lay, are independent and are subject only to the law, and all professional or lay judges are elected, accountable and can be replaced.

OTHER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS ABOUT CUBAN DEMOCRACY ?



Cuba Education Tours organizers are always available to answer questions prior to your trip. Call 1-877-687-3817 toll free or email us.

johnnycakes
11-22-2010, 11:31 AM
http://canadacuba.ca/index2.php


Click on &quot;Cuba Resources&quot; under the green lettering at the top of the page and then on Cuban government.

franksterr
11-22-2010, 05:10 PM
johnnycakes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So... you are saying that Fidel, in order to fool the world into thinking he is a principled socialist, is living a simple life ?
Think about how little sense that makes.
If he were a dictator like Duvalier or those now in exile with billions in the south of France and elsewhere, why would he care what his own people and the world thought
of him?
Can you think of any person who ever led a country for so long who is living as simply as Fidel is ?
And sorry &quot;That's all I have for proof &quot; is not good enough.
That's all you have because, for whatever reason, you choose not to look into this any further.
In situations like this I have always advised people to pick one point like whether or not Fidel is living like a king and that one point only so that they are not overwhelmed by the task and use Google and all other search engines to find everything on the subject and then sort out the truth from amongst the hundreds of sites.
You seemed to have pounced on the Forbes article alone for what you already believe and that is poor research . </div></div>

We have been through this already.

The forbes article proves that your assertion that no where in the western press has anyone accused Castro of having millions is wrong.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
http://www2.fiu.edu/~fcf/juanclark.cuba/clark97.humrtscond.html

The date of this article is?
(The link doesn't work as posted so I will hand type it in and get back to you on what I think of it.)</div></div>

Who knows, sometime after the collapse of the USSR



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I take your refusal to bet as an admission that you doubt what you say you believe.</div></div>

F:
You are applying a capitalist rubric to a communist, how many communist you know die leaving millions in Swiss bank a/c?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You answered your own question. Principled socialists don't have millions just as Fidel does not have millions. But... I can clearly see that you are both anti-socialist and pro- capitalist despite the misery in evidence all over BLACK ruled Africa caused by the disparity in wealth due to capitalism.
You also seem to favor multi-party politics which are universally corrupt.
That mindset precludes objectivity and tends toward the right wing sites that you depend on for your anti revolutionary posts.</div></div>


F:
I have already provided you with websites that purports to show how the Castros enjoy their largess, you have label them anti-Castro.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You have produced a long discredited Forbes article the contents of which have never been backed up by any other source. That is because the article is not credible to the rest of the very pro-U.S media. It is used as an anti Fidel device only by those on the lunatic right because that's all they can produce to back them up.
Did you know that Fidel sleeps with a copy of &quot; Mein Kampff&quot; under his peso-stuffed pillow ? </div></div>

NO! that’s news to me….Thanks for letting me know I would never have thought he did.

the article, the sole purpose for which I cited the article was to show that they were press release stating that Castro had Millions, which ran contrary to what you stated that there was none.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The Forbes article was not a press release from a news source. It was an article in a magazine that features stories meant to sell the magazine.
No news sources said that that story was true. They only reported that Forbes had made this allegation…………………….<span style="font-style: italic"> wouldn't any ostentatious display of personal wealth be picked up on and spread across the U.S. media overnight in big letters??</span>
.</div></div>

You statement did not stipulate that it had to be a press release, just in the US media.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Are you saying that Raul was not voted into office under the rules of Poder Popular ?
Never mind. Do not answer this. It is not a fair question since you have no knowledge of Cuba's electoral system.</div></div>

• Of course he was……voted in by party apparatchiks Castro appointed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The National Assembly in Cuba which is the parallel to the Congress in the U.S. has SUPREME power over any bill or law passed in Cuba.
Neither Fidel nor Raul have the power to pass any laws. They can propose them but they have to be voted upon by the National Assembly to become law.

I highlighted &quot;he is said &quot; above to point out that those who say HE, like you, do not understand nor seemingly WANT to understand how the Cuban government works as that would undermine your beliefs..

I'll try to get a simplified printout of how the Cuban electoral system (Poder Popular)
works and post it.
</div></div>

SURE……you are living in denial.

franksterr
11-22-2010, 05:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This is the best I could do in a short time.
This came from a site called Hello Cuba .

I
Cuban Political System Electoral System

Electoral History and Process National Assembly

Council of State Council of Ministers

Provincial, Municipal Assemblies Judiciary System



CUBAN POLITICAL SYSTEM



Cuba is a republic with a centralized socialist system of government closely identified with the workers.

The structure of the State of the Republic of Cuba is as follows:

1. National Assembly of People's Power
2. Council of State
3. Council of Ministers
4. Provincial and Municipal Governments
5. Judiciary System

Political power rests with the National Assembly of People's Power, which nominates the Council of Ministers, the highest executive body. Its executive committee is composed of the president, the first vice-president and the vice-presidents of the Council of Ministers. Since

The National Assembly of People's Power is composed of deputies elected by secret and direct popular vote, for periods of five years. It sits regularly twice a year. Between sittings of the Assembly the 31-member Council of State, elected from members of the National Assembly, takes over its function.

The members of the National Assembly elect provincial and regional executive committees.

Municipal elections are held every two and half years, while Provincial and National elections, every five years.

ELECTORAL SYSTEM



The Cuban democratic system is regulated by Chapter XIV of the Constitution of the Republic, which establishes that in every election and referendum the vote is free, equal and secret. Each voter has the right to only one vote. All Cubans 16 years old and above have the right to vote.

All citizens, men and women, who fully enjoy their political rights can be elected, including the members of the Armed Forces and other military institutions.

For its political and administrative division, Cuba has 14 provinces and 169 municipalities. These are in turn divided into 13,865 electoral constituencies, which are the bases for the elections. The voters directly propose the candidates and elect their Representatives to the Municipal Assemblies of the People's Power.

ELECTORAL HISTORY AND PROCESS



The National Assembly of Peoples Power (Parliament), the highest legislative power, is elected every five years. From its members the Council of State is elected, which acts on behalf of the National Assembly, between sessions. The National Assembly also appoints the Council of Ministers. In 1992, the Parliament approved changes to the electoral system, which would strengthen public control over the government. Henceforth, the deputies to the National Assembly and the delegates to the Provincial Assembly were to be elected through free and direct ballot.

People's Councils were added to the governmental structure in 1988 and were renewed in 1993. Delegates are elected at the constituency level, they represent the area in which they work and have authority to develop the production and service industries, and to meet the people's needs.

Municipal Administrative Councils consist of elected representatives who work with delegates from social and economic organizations. These Councils can demand that these organizations fulfill their duties to the community.

Ricardo Alarcon, president of the National Assembly, believes that the democratic nature of the National Assembly has been improved, since to be elected you must be nominated by your community. Inherent in the system is the voter's right to recall delegates who are not fulfilling their mandate. This in conjunction with the fact that 99% of those eligible voted on February 24th 1993 reflects the people's active participation in their election process.

Nomination Assemblies are convened within constituencies to propose and elect candidates. There is no intervention by the Communist Party in the process. The Candidacy Commission draws up lists of candidates for delegates to the Provincial Assemblies and for deputies to the National Assembly. These Commissions are made up of representatives of trade unions, students, farmers and women's groups.

In 1998 were elected to the 5th Legislature 601 deputies, among them 282, representing the 46.92%, are base delegates, 145 work in centers of production and services, 31 are linked to the health system, 33 to the educational system, 26 to research institutes, 30 come from trade union, 25 from mass and social organizations, 7 are students, 3 are religious ministers, 14 are writers, artists and culture workers, 16 come from mass media, 35 are members of the armed forces, 67 are officials of the Communist Party and the Union of Communist Youth. The 27.62 % of the Deputies are women and 4.33% are young people under 30 years.

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF THE PEOPLE'S POWER



The Assembly is the only in the Republic that is invested with constituent and legislative authority. It holds two regular sessions a year, which are public unless the Assembly itself votes to hold them behind closed doors for reasons of state.

The Assembly, a one-chamber Parliament, originated from the nation-wide elections held in 1976, with a turn-out, in the first electoral round, of 95.2% of the voters and of 94.9% in the second round. Elected officials, according to the procedures established by law, met for the first time on December 2, that year, thus formally setting up the Cuban Parliament.

The Constitution of the Republic of Cuba, approved in a Referendum on February 14, 1976 when 98% of the voters turned out, empowered the National Assembly as the supreme body of State power, representing and expressing the sovereign will of all the people.

Its deputies are elected every five years, and among them they elect their President, Vice President and Secretary, as well as the 31 members of the Council of State, whose President is the Head of State and Government. However, the Council of State must report to the National Assembly on all its work and tasks. The National Assembly from among its members elects the 31 members of the Council of State; their terms expire when a new Assembly is elected.

The National Assembly has the power to amend the Constitution, pass, amend, and repeal laws, debate and approved national plans for economic development, the State budget, credit and financial programs, the guidelines for domestic and foreign policies, as well as to elect the Council of Ministers, the Presidency, the members of the Supreme Court and the Attorney General Office of the Republic.

It, too, hears the reports from national government and administration agencies and can also grant amnesties. Its members do not receive any economic or personal perquisites and carry out their legislative duties together with their usual work, for which they get their salaries.

The National Assembly convenes twice a year in ordinary periods of sessions. It has, though, permanent commissions to look after issues of legislative interest.

Among its permanent or temporary commissions are those in charge of issues concerning the economy, the sugar industry, food production, industries, transportation and communications, constructions, foreign affairs, public health, defense and interior order.

The National Assembly also has permanent departments that oversee the work of the Commissions, Local Assemblies of the People's Power, International Relations, Judicial Affairs and the Administration.

COUNCIL OF STATE



This collegiate body is the highest representative of the Cuban state in national and international matters. The Council of State represents the National Assembly of the People's Power (a one-chamber Parliament) when the legislative house is in recess, it puts into practice its agreements and does any other work the Assembly may assign it.

Functions of the Council of State:

Convenes the National Assembly's extraordinary sessions

Fixes the date for Parliament elections

Issues decrees-law when the National Assembly is not in session

Makes general and mandatory interpretations of existing laws, when necessary

Takes the legislative initiative

Does whatever is necessary to hold referendum when the National Assembly so decides it

Calls for national mobilization when the country's defense if so required and takes on the power of declaring war in case of aggression or of negotiating peace when the National Assembly is not in session and it cannot be summoned on urgent and safety bases

Replaces, at the President's request, the members of the Council of Ministers when the National Assembly is in recess

Gives general instructions to the courts through the Governing Council of the People's Supreme Court

Gives instructions to the Attorney General Office of the Republic

The National Assembly elects the Council of State from among its members and the elected body must report to the legislative body on all its work.

The President of the Council of State is the Head of Government and State.

COUNCIL OF MINISTERS



The Council of Ministers is Cuba's top executive and administrative body and as such it is the Republic's Government. The Head of State and Government and the First Vice President chair it, and it includes other vice presidents, the secretary, the ministers and the administrators of national agencies.

The Council's most important body is its Executive Committee, chaired by the President, the First Vice President and the other vice presidents, who control and coordinate the work of the ministries and the administration's central bodies.

The Council is responsible of putting into practice the agreements the National Assembly reaches on the country's political, economic, cultural, scientific and social endeavor. It also proposes general plans for economic and social development and once passed by the National Assembly it directs and oversees their implementation.

It also directs the country's foreign policy and its relations with other governments; approves international treaties before passing them over for ratification of the Council of State; directs and oversees foreign trade; elaborates the State budget and watches over its implementation. The Council of Ministers enforces laws and puts into effect agreements the National Assembly reaches and the laws and decrees the Council State passes.

It must report periodically on all its work to the National Assembly.

Its President, the First Vice President, six Vice Presidents, the Secretary, and 27 ministers head the Council of Ministers.

PROVINCIAL AND MUNICIPAL ASSEMBLIES



Cuba is divided in 14 provinces, a special municipality under the supervision of the central government and 169 municipalities subordinate to their respective provincial authorities.

The Assemblies of representatives of the People's Power are the top political bodies of power of the State at municipal and provincial levels according to the Constitution.

Local officials have the highest authority for exercising their state functions. They hold local governments and through the bodies of power they create they run production and economic enterprises and the services, and try to meet the health, economic, cultural, educational and recreation needs of the people under their jurisdiction.

These provincial and municipal governments also contribute to the development and implementations of economic, social and cultural plans within their territories, which are not directly subordinate to them. By law, for the exercise of their functions the local Assemblies rely on the initiative and participation of the people and work closely with social and political organizations.

They are also represented in the People's Councils, set up in cities, towns, neighborhoods, villages and rural areas, with the authority to carry out their functions in their localities and are an extension of the governing bodies of the People's Power.

The members of the People's Councils come from the representatives elected at the local constituencies, and they should elect their leaders. Members of the most important local organizations and institutions can also be part of them.

Once set up, the Municipal Assemblies (21 days after the representatives are elected) and Provincial bodies (15 days later) choose from among their members by secret and direct vote their presidents and vice presidents, who immediately take on their posts.

Only the voters can recall a delegate, and they may exercise this night at any time. Each Assembly elects the President and the Vice-president of the Government.

JUDICIARY SYSTEM



Judicial power rests with the People's Supreme Court, which is elected by, and accountable to, the National Assembly. All judges, from the highest to the lowest, are elected by the respective Popular Power Assemblies; in other words, the Supreme Court judges are elected by the National Assembly; the provincial judges by provincial assemblies and the municipal judges by municipal assemblies.

The People's Supreme Court comprises a president, a vice president, and all professional and lay judges and is structured as follows: the Whole, the State Council, criminal, civil, administrative, labor, crimes-against-the-state and military courts.

The judicial system is based on the principle that all judges, professional or lay, are independent and are subject only to the law, and all professional or lay judges are elected, accountable and can be replaced.

OTHER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS ABOUT CUBAN DEMOCRACY ?



Cuba Education Tours organizers are always available to answer questions prior to your trip. Call 1-877-687-3817 toll free or email us.

</div></div>

Is this supposd to be scholarly and unbiased?

johnnycakes
11-22-2010, 09:37 PM
F:
Is this supposd to be scholarly and unbiased?

J;
I read it through long ago and just before I posted it for you and it seems straightforward to me.
There is no opinion in the piece because it is just info from a group that arranges tours for teachers and students.

This description is no different from how Arnold August described the governmental structure in Cuba in his book. &quot;Democracy In Cuba.....&quot; and is in line with everything else I have read on Cuba's government.

Is your question intended to infer that the information as presented is biased ? if so what did you think was biased in the description?. and if so, can you reference any other source that will describe the Cuban government in such detail?

If you've got something as extensive that gainsays the description I'd like to look at it.

johnnycakes
11-22-2010, 10:15 PM
Franksterr,

I find myself repeating things I've said many times. I just went through one of your lengthy posts and found amongst other things that the article referenced Cuban electoral procedures and law from 1992.
The laws have continually changed since 1992 and what you presented is long out of date. You keep referencing the Forbes article as if it had some credence when NO other source backs up what they and you claim, that Fidel is an extremely rich man.

Lastly I gave you three websites for truthful information, saying that they were indeed biased but since the truth is biased to the left, what you'll find at the three websites will be infinitely more truthful than any of the right wing sites you now use for information. I invite you to go through the stories of the day at ZNET and come back with anything that you can find that is not true even though it is biased far left.

The problem with this is that because you are a right winger (anti-socialist, pro-capitalist, anti-democracy ) you will not look at ZNET or any of the others for any length of time due to cognitive dissonance: the truths they present will clash with what you believe and you'll put on the blinders.

Let's leave it here.

Does this sum it up?
You think that capitalism can be reformed.
You think that Fidel is corrupt.
You think Raul is corrupt.
You think that the Cuban electoral system is not as democratic as what you have.
You think that the Cuban people have second class health care and the &quot;elites&quot; have top notch health care.
You possibly think that the majority of Cubans do not like their economic or electoral systems as well as they would like what the United States wants them to have.
You're anti-socialist, pro-capitalism
You're against democracy and for multi-party politics.

Neither of us is learning anything from our long exchanges and I'm not of a mind to continue this.

I'll just say that time will tell who has it right. you, me, Fidel, Mugabe.

When Mugabe spreads the wealth so that every Zimbabwean gets the healthcare, education, food, shelter, crime free environment , gainful employment that all humans deserve, I'll be the first to congratulate you and say I was wrong.




Time will show which of us is correct.

franksterr
11-23-2010, 05:33 AM
johnnycakes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read it through long ago and just before I posted it for you and it seems straightforward to me.
There is no opinion in the piece because it is just info from a group that arranges tours for teachers and students.

This description is no different from how Arnold August described the governmental structure in Cuba in his book. &quot;Democracy In Cuba.....&quot; and is in line with everything else I have read on Cuba's government.

Is your question intended to infer that the information as presented is biased ? if so what did you think was biased in the description?. and if so, can you reference any other source that will describe the Cuban government in such detail?

If you've got something as extensive that gainsays the description I'd like to look at it.
</div></div>

And because its info from agroup that should make it unbiased???
If you only read my responses instead of creating your fantasy of what I am posting maybe you would see where I have already posted a fair critcism, that you claim is out dated.

franksterr
11-23-2010, 06:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find myself repeating things I've said many times. I just went through one of your lengthy posts and found amongst other things that the article referenced Cuban electoral procedures and law from 1992.
The laws have continually changed since 1992 and what you presented is long out of date. You keep referencing the Forbes article as if it had some credence when NO other source backs up what they and you claim, that Fidel is an extremely rich man</div></div>

Maybe that’s because you are reading and not understanding.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lastly I gave you three websites for truthful information, saying that they were indeed biased but since the truth is biased to the left, what you'll find at the three websites will be infinitely more truthful than any of the right wing sites you now use for information. I invite you to go through the stories of the day at ZNET and come back with anything that you can find that is not true even though it is biased far left.</div></div>

Fine I will look into them

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with this is that because you are a right winger (anti-socialist, pro-capitalist, anti-democracy ) you will not look at ZNET or any of the others for any length of time due to cognitive dissonance: the truths they present will clash with what you believe and you'll put on the blinders. </div></div>

I see you like to stereotype and categories .
I said None of the above, so you are either tough headed or a liar.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's leave it here.

Does this sum it up?
You think that capitalism can be reformed.
You think that Fidel is corrupt.
You think Raul is corrupt.
You think that the Cuban electoral system is not as democratic as what you have.
You think that the Cuban people have second class health care and the &quot;elites&quot; have top notch health care.
You possibly think that the majority of Cubans do not like their economic or electoral systems as well as they would like what the United States wants them to have.
You're anti-socialist, pro-capitalism
You're against democracy and for multi-party politics. </div></div>
Are all people who consider themselves pro-Cuba liars
I never said Castro is Corrupt….lie
I never said Raul is corrupt …lie
I never said racism is the cause of poverty…liar
You said there is no political party in Cuba…Lie
You said Cubans are free from hunger …lie
You said things do not change under capitalism….. liar
You claim no corruption in Cuba….lie
You claim no child prostitution in Cuba….lie
You claim no homeless in Cuba….lie
You claim Castro never experimented with capitalism….lie


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neither of us is learning anything from our long exchanges and I'm not of a mind to continue this</div></div>

I learned that you are a liar and that Cuba’s democracy is a sham.
http://www.isj.org.uk/?id=207

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll just say that time will tell who has it right. you, me, Fidel, Mugabe.</div></div>

No need to wait it is self evident .
Mugabe has done enough to warrant all the credos I have heaped on him.
Fidel is a Great hero in my book , but your sycophantic bootlicking is trying to make a god of a man.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When Mugabe spreads the wealth so that every Zimbabwean gets the healthcare, education, food, shelter, crime free environment , gainful employment that all humans deserve, I'll be the first to congratulate you and say I was wrong.</div></div>

Where except in your deluded mind does that exist?????


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Time will show which of us is correct.</div></div>
We do not need to wait, to prove that.
It obvious you are in denial and suffer with delusions of a Cuban utopia.

johnnycakes
11-23-2010, 11:28 AM
F:
I never said racism is the cause of poverty…liar

From a previous exchange :

J: Sub-Saharan Africa has poverty rates that can get up to 80% in a given country and even the best economies have poverty and deprivation rates that are inhumane.

F:
The poverty in Africa is a direct result of Racism.

johnnycakes
11-23-2010, 12:44 PM
Franksterr,

Today I spent about two hours going through websites that dealt with economic reform in Zimbabwe and poverty in Zimbabwe not only the history before 2010 but up until mid 2010 and every site except one in which a Zimbabwean economic official gave a very optimistic delivery on the economy that in no way reflected what the other sites, many of them in Zimbabwe had to say. In total I read through about 30 websites and NONE of them had the optimistic viewpoint you present on Zimbabwe.

There was even an article that said &quot;students&quot; had to resort to prostitution so that they could continue to go to school and that the poverty rate which was 80% in 2004 is still atrocious.
Zimbabwe is as close as you can come to a failed state.

I do not understand how you, who are far more familiar with Zimbabwe than I, can know this and then point fingers at Cuban society.

Zimbabwe needs a political and economic revolution far more than the 1959 Cubans

Interesting to note that Cuba and Zimbabwe have about the same populations but infinitely different social conditions.
How is it that with the vaunted freedom to travel
that the below poverty level 80% of Zimbabweans don't pack up and leave for a better place?

http://www.zimbabwesituation.org/?p=11409

franksterr
11-23-2010, 05:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
F:
I never said racism is the cause of poverty…liar

From a previous exchange :

J: Sub-Saharan Africa has poverty rates that can get up to 80% in a given country and even the best economies have poverty and deprivation rates that are inhumane.

F:
The poverty <span style="font-weight: bold">in Africa </span>is a direct result of Racism.

</div></div>

And my response to that previous exchange was as follows...



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
J:As for racism being the cause of poverty, there are at least 50 million poor people in the United States and they are of all races. Blacks have a disproportionately higher poverty rate because of racism but racism only adds people to the list of poor that is already huge under capitalism, the root cause.

F:That’s not what I said, “I said the poverty <span style="font-weight: bold">in Africa </span>is a direct result of racism” please keep it honest and try not re-interpreting my words.</div></div>

franksterr
11-23-2010, 06:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Today I spent about two hours going through websites that dealt with economic reform in Zimbabwe and poverty in Zimbabwe not only the history before 2010 but up until mid 2010 and every site except one in which a Zimbabwean economic official gave a very optimistic delivery on the economy that in no way reflected what the other sites, many of them in Zimbabwe had to say. In total I read through about 30 websites and NONE of them had the optimistic viewpoint you present on Zimbabwe.</div></div>

And that maybe true, Zimbabwe future according to the experts look bleak

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was even an article that said &quot;students&quot; had to resort to prostitution so that they could continue to go to school and that the poverty rate which was 80% in 2004 is still atrocious.
Zimbabwe is as close as you can come to a failed state.</div></div>

Yes that is true….all societies suffer with prostitution

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not understand how you, who are far more familiar with Zimbabwe than I, can know this and then point fingers at Cuban society. </div></div>

I am Not pointing fingers at Cuban society, that what you cant get.
There is obvious flaws in the Cuban system and many of its citizens seem to have some dissatisfaction – No system is perfect.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zimbabwe needs a political and economic revolution far more than the 1959 Cubans </div></div>

Zimbabwe is going through its own form of economic revolution….why do you want them to copy Cuba. Cuba is unique let Zimbabwe be Zimbabwe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting to note that Cuba and Zimbabwe have about the same populations but infinitely different social conditions.
How is it that with the vaunted freedom to travel
that the below poverty level 80% of Zimbabweans don't pack up and leave for a better place?</div></div>

Yes that is true.
Chances are if Zimbabwe had a big brother giving them 2-5billions dollars a year for 30 yrs things would look different, instead the brutes renege on their meager agreement of paying for their kin stolen lands

http://www.zimbabwesituation.org/?p=11409

Sure Zimbabweans are poor, only thirty years ago they were 100% worst off. Mugabe choose to honor the accord and work within the laws of his country in his search for change.

johnnycakes
11-24-2010, 04:20 PM
Franksterr.
You wrote:
Zimbabwe is going through its own form of economic revolution….why do you want them to copy Cuba. Cuba is unique let Zimbabwe be Zimbabwe



In the end though it would appear that Zimbabwe's changes are more in the way of reforms to the already existing economic and political structures and not nearly reform enough to be called revolutionary.

I do not remember any Third World country reforming either capitalism to the point that the poor were all lifted nor the political side of things to the point that democracy is even remotely possible.
In this Zimbabwe is no different from all other sub-Saharan countries.

franksterr
11-25-2010, 04:21 PM
johnnycakes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the end though it would appear that Zimbabwe's changes are more in the way of reforms to the already existing economic and political structures and not nearly reform enough to be called revolutionary.</div></div>

If it appears that way too you, then it is a testament to ZANU ability to make revolutionary change seems like apart of everyday business as usual. Taking land from one class of people that consisted of 4000 individuals and giving it to a million people of another class, out of a total population of 13 million, That is revolutionary.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not remember any Third World country reforming either capitalism to the point that the poor were all lifted nor the political side of things to the point that democracy is even remotely possible.</div></div>

You seem to think the problem is presence of capitalism or the lack of democracy, whilst I see it dependent solely on the will of the leaders and then the people. China since it has adopted a semi-capitalist type economy has moved millions more out of poverty than it did during its communist yrs in a much shorter period of time.....without democracy.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In this Zimbabwe is no different from all other sub-Saharan countries.
</div></div>

That is true.

The important thing you are missing is that Zimbabwe is the First African Nation to reject European pressures on how to manage/run its economy/country and remain intact.

johnnycakes
11-25-2010, 08:58 PM
&quot;China since it has adopted a semi-capitalist type economy has moved millions more out of poverty than it did during its communist yrs in a much shorter period of time.....without democracy.&quot;


Franksterr,

While many people in China have improved their economic conditions and a relative handful have gotten fabulously wealthy, China is no different from any other developing or Third World capitalist country in that at least 25% are living and consigned permanently to poverty and it's not because of racism, it's because that is the nature of capitalism.

Capitalism is a much better fit with a totalitarian government in that capitalism itself is totalitarian: rule from the top down with no say for the people not at the top.

That is why totalitarian governments eventually fall and capitalism fails.

An evolving civilization will naturally move towards democracy both in the economic and the electoral processes.


The coming demise of the empire; the hyperpowered United States will open the doors to world democracy and the end of capitalism.

franksterr
11-26-2010, 02:55 PM
johnnycakes


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While many people in China have improved their economic conditions and a relative handful have gotten fabulously wealthy, China is no different from any other developing or Third World capitalist country in that at least 25% are living and consigned permanently to poverty and it's not because of racism, it's because that is the nature of capitalism.</div></div>

What is important is that more people are living better than before, and overall poverty has decline. That poverty still existed is the bane of every economic system.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Capitalism is a much better fit with a totalitarian government in that capitalism itself is totalitarian: rule from the top down with no say for the people not at the top. </div></div>

Any system can succumb to totalitarianism.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is why totalitarian governments eventually fall and capitalism fails.

An evolving civilization will naturally move towards democracy both in the economic and the electoral processes. </div></div>

Nearly all the freedoms we enjoy today were never won through the electoral process or protected by democracy.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The coming demise of the empire; the hyperpowered United States will open the doors to world democracy and the end of capitalism.
</div></div>
So says you

johnnycakes
11-26-2010, 05:57 PM
Re: China
&quot;What is important is that more people are living better than before, and overall poverty has decline. That poverty still existed is the bane of every economic system.&quot;


Franksterr,

You are correct that China has reduced overall poverty greatly but that reduction has been through government subsidies, tax breaks, greater educational efforts etc in the rural areas where poverty is greater.
This indicates that the government is still very much into central planning in certain areas of the economy and has not adopted a total laissez-faire attitude vis a vis private business as is common in the western industrialized countries and in the poorer, less dynamic capitalist economies.

In that, China bears some resemblance to Venezuela which is concentrating some of its oil wealth to lift the poor.

This is also not too dissimilar to what the wealthy, advanced Scandinavian countries have done to eliminate the ill effects of poverty and income disparity which is intrinsic to capitalism and which when not subjected to remedial action results in the 25%-80% poverty levels in the less developed world and the United States.


The problem with poverty reduction under capitalism is that it does not reach ALL the people as it does in a strictly socialist economy so that you always do have the rich living side by side with the very poor unless there is state intervention which in the United States is not liked and considered socialism or welfare, both dirty words in the American lexicon.

In the poorer capitalist countries there simply is not enough money in the government's hands to spend on poverty alleviation and those in debt to the IMF get loans that are conditioned on cutting welfare and infrastructure expenditures.

An interesting statistic I picked up while researching poverty in China:
Of the richest entities (countries, businesses, any organization) in the world today, 51% are corporations.

SO... there are choices. You can have:
1) a laissez-faire capitalist economy under which the poverty levels are between 25% and 80%

2) a rich social welfare capitalist state like Sweden which taxes the capitalist economy at high rates to finance the huge social welfare programs which have eliminated the ill effects of poverty

3) The Chinese model (still under development) in which there is also a mix of capitalism and state intervention to greatly alleviate but which does not eliminate, the ill effects of poverty for all.

4) A strict socialist economy such as only Cuba has which has nearly totally eliminated the ill effects of poverty by spreading what wealth it has amongst all its people.

Zimbabwe and sub-Saharan Africa obviously cannot continue with #1 because reforming of that kind of system has never worked and cannot work in the poorer countries.

They are too poor and underdeveloped to ever take up #2.

I believe they also lack the development capability and/or the resources to effect enough development to attempt #3, the Chinese model and for one reason or the other mainly the threat from the United States et al, they are not free to take up #4 , the Cuban model.


So you do wind up settling for often incremental improvements in the lot of the half of the world that lives on a dollar or two a day with no hope of achieving what Cuba, China or Sweden have done.

In fact the Cuban model, which is not based on a very highly industrialized but on a mostly agrarian economy and which involves a fairly low per capita income, seems to be the only model applicable to other poor countries to eliminate the ill effects of poverty but they would have to dump both capitalism and the present undemocratic multi-party electoral systems to do that and that would not be allowed.

The Cubans remain relatively poor on an individual basis but they have all the basic requirements needed for human development and the near total elimination of hunger, illiteracy, homelessness, serious crime, drug use and the drug trade, gangs, internecine warfare.

The best the other countries in the world which are poor, underdeveloped, resource poor, in debt and which have capitalist economies can do is to work with great difficulty and small success toward an incremental decrease in starvation, homelessness, and all the rest.

Of all of the ills of capitalism, the illiteracy problem may be the easiest to fix as it is also the easiest and least expensive .
The Cubans and Venezuelans used volunteer high school students to teach the illiterate adults how to read and write and it was done in a very short time and of course you only have to teach anyone how to read and write once.

There is no reason that all other capitalist countries could not organize the same sort of thing if they wanted to.

As you pointed out, Zimbabwe succeeded in getting to a 90% literacy rate despite all the difficulties it is having.

franksterr
11-26-2010, 08:34 PM
johnnycakes


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are correct that China has reduced overall poverty greatly but that reduction has been through government subsidies, tax breaks, greater educational efforts etc in the rural areas where poverty is greater.
This indicates that the government is still very much into central planning in certain areas of the economy and has not adopted a total laissez-faire attitude vis a vis private business as is common in the western industrialized countries and in the poorer, less dynamic capitalist economies.</div></div>

Its working.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In that, China bears some resemblance to Venezuela which is concentrating some of its oil wealth to lift the poor.

This is also not too dissimilar to what the wealthy, advanced Scandinavian countries have done to eliminate the ill effects of poverty and income disparity which is intrinsic to capitalism and which when not subjected to remedial action results in the 25%-80% poverty levels in the less developed world and the United States.</div></div>

In short they are using the nations wealth to reduce the nations poverty.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with poverty reduction under capitalism is that it does not reach ALL the people as it does in a strictly socialist economy so that you always do have the rich living side by side with the very poor unless there is state intervention which in the United States is not liked and considered socialism or welfare, both dirty words in the American lexicon.</div></div>

So the heart of your response is that socialism is better a eradicating poverty from all the peoples in a specific country. And so it follows that it will do the same for all countries.
To me the system used is secondary, the people running the system is primary.
As for socialist/communist countries being or having done better at total poverty reduction in their own countries it is hard to tell as their press freedoms tend to be low and travel restricted.
Before the fall of Communism China Russia E.Germany and N.Korea used to deny that their was any form of poverty in their countries. With the rise of prostitution in Cuba, thats a sure sign of extreme and widespread poverty.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the poorer capitalist countries there simply is not enough money in the government's hands to spend on poverty alleviation and those in debt to the IMF get loans that are conditioned on cutting welfare and infrastructure expenditures. </div></div>

IMF as used in Africa is a tool of Racism/Imperialsim not capitalism.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An interesting statistic I picked up while researching poverty in China:
Of the richest entities (countries, businesses, any organization) in the world today, 51% are corporations.

SO... there are choices. You can have:
1) a laissez-faire capitalist economy under which the poverty levels are between 25% and 80%

2) a rich social welfare capitalist state like Sweden which taxes the capitalist economy at high rates to finance the huge social welfare programs which have eliminated the ill effects of poverty

3) The Chinese model (still under development) in which there is also a mix of capitalism and state intervention to greatly alleviate but which does not eliminate, the ill effects of poverty for all.

4) A strict socialist economy such as only Cuba has which has nearly totally eliminated the ill effects of poverty by spreading what wealth it has amongst all its people.</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Are You saying there is no poverty in CUBA?</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zimbabwe and sub-Saharan Africa obviously cannot continue with #1 because reforming of that kind of system has never worked and cannot work in the poorer countries.

They are too poor and underdeveloped to ever take up #2.

I believe they also lack the development capability and/or the resources to effect enough development to attempt #3, the Chinese model and for one reason or the other mainly the threat from the United States et al, they are not free to take up #4 , the Cuban model.


So you do wind up settling for often incremental improvements in the lot of the half of the world that lives on a dollar or two a day with no hope of achieving what Cuba, China or Sweden have done.</div></div>

There is always hope, where ever there is a WILL there is a way.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In fact the Cuban model, which is not based on a very highly industrialized but on a mostly agrarian economy and which involves a fairly low per capita income, seems to be the only model applicable to other poor countries to eliminate the ill effects of poverty but they would have to dump both capitalism and the present undemocratic multi-party electoral systems to do that and that would not be allowed.</div></div>

Aren't you forcing on other countries what you believe is right for them, is that not what the capitalist are doing?
The leaders of Zimbabwe is setting a new way for all of Africa, in so doing they will take from wherever what works for them

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Cubans remain relatively poor on an individual basis but they have all the basic requirements needed for human development and the near total elimination of hunger, illiteracy, homelessness, serious crime, drug use and the drug trade, gangs, internecine warfare.</div></div>

We have been through this several times already.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best the other countries in the world which are poor, underdeveloped, resource poor, in debt and which have capitalist economies can do is to work with great difficulty and small success toward an incremental decrease in starvation, homelessness, and all the rest. </div></div>

That's your opinion and you are entitle to them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of all of the ills of capitalism, the illiteracy problem may be the easiest to fix as it is also the easiest and least expensive .
The Cubans and Venezuelans used volunteer high school students to teach the illiterate adults how to read and write and it was done in a very short time and of course you only have to teach anyone how to read and write once.</div></div>

Zimbabwe no longer has that problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no reason that all other capitalist countries could not organize the same sort of thing if they wanted to.</div></div>

Because it has nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with Racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As you pointed out, Zimbabwe succeeded in getting to a 90% literacy rate despite all the difficulties it is having.
</div></div>

Thank you

johnnycakes
11-27-2010, 12:02 AM
Franksterr:
You asked:
Are You saying there is no poverty in CUBA?

In the same post I wrote:
Quote:
The Cubans remain relatively poor on an individual basis but they have all the basic requirements needed for human development and the near total elimination of hunger, illiteracy, homelessness, serious crime, drug use and the drug trade, gangs, internecine warfare.

What I am attempting to point out here is that despite having a low per capita income, ALL Cubans, not just some, not just most but ALL Cubans have sufficient food, at LEAST a 10th grade education and they are constantly improving on this, universal health care, no one is homeless, no one need fear not having what they and their family need because they can't find a job, divorce or loss of a mate does not mean deprivation for a woman with several children and everything else listed above.

The point is that elimination of the terrible effects of poverty found in most capitalist countries and certainly in all the poorer ones is possible only with a strict socialist economy. Note I did not say that the overall wealth or personal wealth was changed but that the overall condition of the ENTIRE population was changed for the better.

The United Nations Human Development Index is accepted worldwide as the standard by which conditions in the countries of the world are measured and on this index Cuba placed 51st in the world.
Again I'll stress this point. It is not some of the Cubans or most of the Cubans but ALL of the Cubans, every man, woman, and child regardless of age, religion, physical state or any other factor is represented in the 51st placement.

This could never have been accomplished in any similarly poor country under capitalism simply because there is an intrinsic disparity in wealth under capitalism.
So, with the exception of the highly developed SOCIAL democracies ( meaning capitalist countries with a great many massively funded social programs to alleviate the effects of poverty and the wealth to do it) placement on the Human Development Index always means that there are a heap of people at the bottom to which the rating does NOT apply; who do not get what most of the people in that country get.

What Cuba has done, any country in similar circumstances can also do if they were permitted to try it
Note also that I do not refer to the old secretive and non-democratic Stalinist regimes like the Soviets, Koreans, Chinese. The Cubans are justifiably proud of what they have accomplished and want the world to know what they have done and how they have done it ( and all the while under attack from the United States).
Cuba does not hide what goes on in the country. There are many professional groups that regularly tour the island and know which claims are true and which are not.

In fact, it is the United States which bans its citizens from visiting the island exactly so they will not see the truth.
it is the United States that puts out most of the anti-Cuban propaganda that many believe to be factual because getting people to think that Cuba is a terrible place under a system that is anathema to the United States is a necessary and big part of the U.S. war on Cuba.

If you choose to take the same position, using much of the same anti-Cuban rhetoric lies and half-truths as the racist, imperial, pro-colonial United States, why not go back to being Rhodesian and live it?

Zimbabwe could do for its people what Cuba has done unless there are not enough moral and charismatic leaders in the country, unless the Zimbabwean people lack the fighting spirit of the Cubans, unless the Zimbabweans believe the propaganda as you do and don't think they can make a revolution (and not piddling reforms of the same old systems but a real revolution )

My question for you would be; How long are you willing to wait, how many Zimbabweans will die or starve in hard times or will never be able to reach their human development potential before you admit that capitalism and an undemocratic electoral system doesn't work, cannot be sufficiently reformed.

Lastly, Zimbabwe is black ruled. It is not white ruled. The effects of poverty that afflict so many in country are do to the unequal distribution of the (limited) wealth of the country.
Cuba is poor but no one starves when times are bad, no one is homeless etc, etc, etc .
Please explain your claim that racism is the cause of poverty in post-colonial sub-Saharan Africa because I can't follow that at all unless you mean to say that neo-colonialism is racist and in that case I would hold that racism becomes a contributing but minor factor in poverty imposed by unfair trade practices.
The First Worlders, the old colonial powers, the people who are robbing Zimbabwe don't care if you're black, blue or purple, all they want is your money.

Just as the Chinese are out-doing the West at their own game and don't care that most of the United States and Europe is white. It's money that drives them and not racism.

That racism especially anti-black racism is a fact in the world is not in dispute but that racism is the primary cause of the rich robbing the poor of the world including Zimbabwe just does not hold water.

As a communist, I do quite a bit of reading on poverty and its causes and I have seen very few sources that list racism as a primary cause EXCEPT in countries that are predominantly white like the United States and even here it only increases the proportion of blacks in poverty while the total numbers of the poor are white.

This does not apply in predominantly black countries.

It would be one thing if you were to say that racism is but one of the factors in the huge levels of poverty in SSA but to put all the blame on racism and none at all on capitalism suggests that you have a vested interest in capitalism and therefore the status quo.

You cannot keep capitalism and the current non-democratic governmental form and expect change.

There is a saying that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is a definition of insanity.

But then there are those in power who put up a facade of change that is not real, that does not work in order to keep things the way they are while fooling the general public into thinking their efforts are sincere.

Well maybe Zimbabwe is too corrupt to ever fix itself.

Maybe it IS a failed state and in that case, what then?

Do you have any workable ideas or are you just looking at what amounts to distant possibilities of reform with only very remote chances of creating serious and systemic improvements in the lives of the nearly twelve million Zimbabweans?

franksterr
11-27-2010, 01:18 PM
johnnycakes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the same post I wrote:
Quote:
The Cubans remain relatively poor on an individual basis but they have all the basic requirements needed for human development and the near total elimination of hunger, illiteracy, homelessness, serious crime, drug use and the drug trade, gangs, internecine warfare.

What I am attempting to point out here is that despite having a low per capita income, ALL Cubans, not just some, not just most but ALL Cubans have sufficient food, at LEAST a 10th grade education and they are constantly improving on this, universal health care, no one is homeless, no one need fear not having what they and their family need because they can't find a job, divorce or loss of a mate does not mean deprivation for a woman with several children and everything else listed above.

The point is that elimination of the terrible effects of poverty found in most capitalist countries and certainly in all the poorer ones is possible only with a strict socialist economy. Note I did not say that the overall wealth or personal wealth was changed but that the overall condition of the ENTIRE population was changed for the better.

The United Nations Human Development Index is accepted worldwide as the standard by which conditions in the countries of the world are measured and on this index Cuba placed 51st in the world.
Again I'll stress this point. It is not some of the Cubans or most of the Cubans but ALL of the Cubans, every man, woman, and child regardless of age, religion, physical state or any other factor is represented in the 51st placement.</div></div>

You say&quot;<span style="font-style: italic">ALL Cubans, not just some, not just most but ALL Cubans have sufficient food&quot;..........&quot;No one is homeless&quot;</span> I think that those statement are exaggerations.

How is Jamaica, Barbados, and Trinidad doing on the UNHDI??
How is Cuba doing on the democracy index?

http://www.wfp.org/countries/cuba
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/jun00/07e7.htm


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This could never have been accomplished in any similarly poor country under capitalism simply because there is an intrinsic disparity in wealth under capitalism.
So, with the exception of the highly developed SOCIAL democracies ( meaning capitalist countries with a great many massively funded social programs to alleviate the effects of poverty and the wealth to do it) placement on the Human Development Index always means that there are a heap of people at the bottom to which the rating does NOT apply; who do not get what most of the people in that country get.</div></div>

Chances are the same could be said of Cuba?
Did the UN go to Cuba and do surveys, measurements, demographics and epidemiological studies of the various stages of malnutrition to arrive at those estimates or was each country ask to submit figures on various social indicators?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What Cuba has done, any country in similar circumstances can also do if they were permitted to try it
Note also that I do not refer to the old secretive and non-democratic Stalinist regimes like the Soviets, Koreans, Chinese. The Cubans are justifiably proud of what they have accomplished and want the world to know what they have done and how they have done it ( and all the while under attack from the United States).
Cuba does not hide what goes on in the country. There are many professional groups that regularly tour the island and know which claims are true and which are not.</div></div>

The first 30 yrs is in stark contrast to the last 20 yrs as they were no longer a favored son of Mother Russia......Zimbabwe had no such benefactor.

Name a few of the groups that tour Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In fact, it is the United States which bans its citizens from visiting the island exactly so they will not see the truth.
it is the United States that puts out most of the anti-Cuban propaganda that many believe to be factual because getting people to think that Cuba is a terrible place under a system that is anathema to the United States is a necessary and big part of the U.S. war on Cuba.</div></div>


Is There a ban on travel to Cuba?
http://www.cubalinda.com/English/Sections/HowCubaUS.asp

Does Cuba ban travel outside of Cuba for Cubans?
Why do Cubans risk their lives to leave and is sometimes persecuted by Cuban authorities for wanting to leave?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you choose to take the same position, using much of the same anti-Cuban rhetoric lies and half-truths as the racist, imperial, pro-colonial United States, why not go back to being Rhodesian and live it? </div></div>

My search is for the truth, and I will not jump out of the pan and into the fire, because some one is pushing absurdities-unrealistic dreams about a Cuban utopia.
I was and is still against Rhodesian, Cuban utopia real or imagine will not change that. The Truth is the truth no matter where it comes from.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zimbabwe could do for its people what Cuba has done unless there are not enough moral and charismatic leaders in the country, unless the Zimbabwean people lack the fighting spirit of the Cubans, unless the Zimbabweans believe the propaganda as you do and don't think they can make a revolution (and not piddling reforms of the same old systems but a real revolution ) </div></div>

I am not there fighting the battles, and will not ask of others what I for whatever reason is not doing. The leaders of Zimbabwe is fighting it there way, and they have my support, as I can see the direction they are going and the success they have achieved.
They have achieved things which individuals like yourself say could not be done save through a socialist/communist revolution.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My question for you would be; How long are you willing to wait, how many Zimbabweans will die or starve in hard times or will never be able to reach their human development potential before you admit that capitalism and an undemocratic electoral system doesn't work, cannot be sufficiently reformed.</div></div>

As long as the leaders of Zimbabwe are will to endure.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lastly, Zimbabwe is black ruled. It is not white ruled. The effects of poverty that afflict so many in country are do to the unequal distribution of the (limited) wealth of the country.
Cuba is poor but no one starves when times are bad, no one is homeless etc, etc, etc </div></div>

Zimbabwe has just redistributed land to over a million families, if you do not recognize that as revolutionary wealth re-distribution then I can not help you.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...lling-an-exodus (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/millions-of-cubans-facing-starvation-hunger-is-fuelling-an-exodus)
http://www.buildfreedom.com/tanner/evolution.shtml

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please explain your claim that racism is the cause of poverty in post-colonial sub-Saharan Africa because I can't follow that at all unless you mean to say that neo-colonialism is racist and in that case I would hold that racism becomes a contributing but minor factor in poverty imposed by unfair trade practices.
The First Worlders, the old colonial powers, the people who are robbing Zimbabwe don't care if you're black, blue or purple, all they want is your money. </div></div>

Neo-colonialism is predicated upon racism, it is not incidental or a contributing factor it is the chief purpose and main function...... Making a profit comes second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9VxnCBD9W4&amp;feature=related
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=4nqzc8KiU0o&amp;feature=related

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just as the Chinese are out-doing the West at their own game and don't care that most of the United States and Europe is white. It's money that drives them and not racism.

That racism especially anti-black racism is a fact in the world is not in dispute but that racism is the primary cause of the rich robbing the poor of the world including Zimbabwe just does not hold water.</div></div>

The Chinese are trying to secure their spot and so in that quest has no need of that baggage now. The West is secure their spot on the top and racism is the tool used against black nations that are potential competitors. Only 50yrs ago Chines was a basket case today they looms as a threat to the West hegemony

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a communist, I do quite a bit of reading on poverty and its causes and I have seen very few sources that list racism as a primary cause EXCEPT in countries that are predominantly white like the United States and even here it only increases the proportion of blacks in poverty while the total numbers of the poor are white.</div></div>

If so them you are reading and not comprehending.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This does not apply in predominantly black countries.

It would be one thing if you were to say that racism is but one of the factors in the huge levels of poverty in SSA but to put all the blame on racism and none at all on capitalism suggests that you have a vested interest in capitalism and therefore the status quo. </div></div>

Capitalism is primarily a tool and racism is primarily a weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You cannot keep capitalism and the current non-democratic governmental form and expect change.</div></div>

How can you say that when we have moved from outright slavery and overt colonialism
to civil rights and political sovereignty.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a saying that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is a definition of insanity.</div></div>

Why have been having good success.
Outright revolution without support in place makes many Haiti's.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But then there are those in power who put up a facade of change that is not real, that does not work in order to keep things the way they are while fooling the general public into thinking their efforts are sincere.

Well maybe Zimbabwe is too corrupt to ever fix itself.

Maybe it IS a failed state and in that case, what then?</div></div>

Zimbabwe is open you can travel there and see for yourself. People come and go as they please.
Time will tell????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have any workable ideas or are you just looking at what amounts to distant possibilities of reform with only very remote chances of creating serious and systemic improvements in the lives of the nearly twelve million Zimbabweans?</div></div>

The success of Land Reform is a positive testament to the intent of Zimbabwe,s leaders

johnnycakes
11-27-2010, 04:05 PM
Is there a travel ban for American citizens who want to go to Cuba?

http://www.ehow.com/about_5407689_penalties-unauthorized-travel-cuba.html
http://www.righttotraveltocuba.org/defending/victories_vs_travel_ban
AND there are about 200 more references at &quot;penalties for unauthorized travel to Cuba in case you want more proof.

Franksterr, This has been in place for about 50 years. I'm surprised that anyone even vaguely familiar with the U.S.-Cuban situation would not know this.

You can get around the ban IF your expenses are paid by the Cubans or if you are going as a member of a scholastic group but I could not go as a tourist without facing stiff penalties as enumerated in the link above.

As for questioning the universality of Cuban's having homes, adequate food, adequate medical , dental and mental health care, pre-school to graduate school educational opportunities etc I would suggest you try to find reliable sources that say otherwise and then compare those sources with ones that say what I am saying is true.

I can understand your having problems believing it is true given that it is unique in the world outside of the social democracies in Scandinavia and, of course impossible in the poor Third World outside of Cuba.

Cuba is working along the lines of Marx's &quot;To each according to their needs and from each according to their ability to give&quot;
It's a concept both alien to capitalism and for the most part impossible under capitalism because under capitalism money is piled up in private hands and there is not enough to go around for the rest , resulting in starvation, malnutrition, homelessness etc,,

I end my posts with a quote that is displayed on a large billboard in Cuba:
They put that sign up to remind Cubans of what the world outside of Cuba is like and to show just how good Cuba's democratic socialism is for ALL the people.

It really doesn't matter if YOU choose not to believe that sign because the Cuban people know it is the truth and as repeatedly said, they overwhelmingly support their revolution.

Of the three countries you asked about an HDI rating, I only have one in my head and that is Jamaica that placed around 101 and with a higher per capita income than Cuba.

Cuba's rating puts Cuba in the first tier of nations that includes all the wealthy advanced capitalist nations. I cannot tell you at this moment how the U.N. arrives at its HDI figures but I can tell you that nobody questions them.

You can talk all you want about the advances Zimbabwe has made but those advances have been in just the past year and based on history, those changes are far from revolutionary and in the end will not end the hunger, poverty, lack of social services, crime and exploitation by the colonial powers .
Zimbabwe on the course it is on will never achieve what the Cubans have achieved in lifting ALL their people out of colonial poverty and the effects thereof.
That would require a total redistribution of wealth which in turn requires that the will of the people be expressed in the actions of the government.
The poor do not rule in Africa so this is a non-starter .


Lastly, for now, can you reference any sources that back up your claim that the cause of poverty in Africa is primarily racism and not capitalism because I think that claim is a way of excusing capitalism for some reason I can only guess at.

I went to and listened to the two links you provided to back up your racism claim and only was able to hear the first half of the first because of a computer problem and about 2/3 of the second and all Stockwell had to say in what I hears was that it was a north- south thing and Stockewell used the expression THird World War because iut was a U.S/CIA war on the Third World, not on black people not against brown people but against poor Third World. Nothing at all about racism being a factor.
Try reading the 29 page introduction to 'Killing Hope&quot; by William Blum available on the web by Googling &quot;Killing Hope&quot; and then take a look at the list of countries in which Blum details CIA interventions. Some are African but most are not and Blum (also ex-CIA) also never says that racism is a major factor. How can it be in CIA interventions in Italy, Hungary, Greece, Nicaragua, Chile, Iran etc?
Have you ever Googled &quot; the cause of poverty in Africa&quot; and read what comes up?

You should.

&quot;How can you say that when we have moved from outright slavery and overt colonialism to civil rights and political sovereignty&quot;

Zimbabwe's people have only changed their masters. Zimbabwe's political system is undemocratic and those who own the factories and the means of production and who possess the wealth rule just as in the United States after its revolution.
A few reforms, even the vaunted land reform which has resulted in a third of the farms failing does not make much difference in the lives of most Zimbabweans and these small changes in no way point to a continuance of reforms.

Besides, no one has ever reformed a Zimbabwe type situation into anything that seriously improved the lives of the poor because poverty is a natural part of capitalism and even more so in poor countries.

As said, time will tell and in the case of Zimbabwe all signs point to a downturn rather than a continuance of the small gains of 2010. That has been the history of the Third World under capitalism and nothing has changed within capitalism to indicate any chance of serious change.

The monied folks will not allow any change unless it is at the point of a gun and they are the ones with the most guns.

franksterr
11-27-2010, 07:03 PM
johnnycakes

Is there a travel ban for American citizens who want to go to Cuba?

<span style="font-style: italic"> The Bush Administration has increased restrictions on our right to travel, systematically denying both individuals and groups with legal ways of going to Cuba. U.S. travelers are subject to serious charges and fines, <span style="font-weight: bold">yet to date no one who has stood up for their rights has gone to jail or had to pay the full penalties. Crjminal charges have been dropped, and in most cases, settlements have been negotiated or are awaiting appeal.</span> By demanding our basic Constitutional Right to travel, we can make a difference! </span>
AND there are about 200 more references at &quot;penalties for unauthorized travel to Cuba in case you want more proof.[/i]
http://www.righttotraveltocuba.org/defending/victories_vs_travel_ban
And thats from a site you provided.

http://www.havanatimes.org/?p=18972
http://www2.fiu.edu/~fcf/IACHR.rtresmov.html

whilst in Cuba thousand are being imprisoned
<span style="font-style: italic">In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, </span>
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Franksterr, This has been in place for about 50 years. I'm surprised that anyone even vaguely familiar with the U.S.-Cuban situation would not know this.

You can get around the ban IF your expenses are paid by the Cubans or if you are going as a member of a scholastic group but I could not go as a tourist without facing stiff penalties as enumerated in the link above.</div></div>

Your own site says no one has been imprisoned by the US for so doing.......a many travel companies advertise ways of getting around the so called US ban.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for questioning the universality of Cuban's having homes, adequate food, adequate medical , dental and mental health care, pre-school to graduate school educational opportunities etc I would suggest you try to find reliable sources that say otherwise and then compare those sources with ones that say what I am saying is true.

I can understand your having problems believing it is true given that it is unique in the world outside of the social democracies in Scandinavia and, of course impossible in the poor Third World outside of Cuba. </div></div>

You provide your scholastic sources???
I then we will compare them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cuba is working along the lines of Marx's &quot;To each according to their needs and from each according to their ability to give&quot;
It's a concept both alien to capitalism and for the most part impossible under capitalism because under capitalism money is piled up in private hands and there is not enough to go around for the rest , resulting in starvation, malnutrition, homelessness etc,,</div></div>

Is that the case in those capitalist Scandinavian countries?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I end my posts with a quote that is displayed on a large billboard in Cuba:
They put that sign up to remind Cubans of what the world outside of Cuba is like and to show just how good Cuba's democratic socialism is for ALL the people.

It really doesn't matter if YOU choose not to believe that sign because the Cuban people know it is the truth and as repeatedly said, they overwhelmingly support their revolution.

Of the three countries you asked about an HDI rating, I only have one in my head and that is Jamaica that placed around 101 and with a higher per capita income than Cuba.</div></div>

Check again I hear Jamaica is at 80 or there about and Cuba is no longer at 50 or there abouts.
Could it be that Barbados outranks Cuba???
Cuba seems to me missing on the index for the yrs of 09 &amp;10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cuba's rating puts Cuba in the first tier of nations that includes all the wealthy advanced capitalist nations. I cannot tell you at this moment how the U.N. arrives at its HDI figures but I can tell you that nobody questions them.</div></div>

You did question them in your earlier postings!!!!!
Really so where is Cuba now?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can talk all you want about the advances Zimbabwe has made but those advances have been in just the past year and based on history, those changes are far from revolutionary and in the end will not end the hunger, poverty, lack of social services, crime and exploitation by the colonial powers .
Zimbabwe on the course it is on will never achieve what the Cubans have achieved in lifting ALL their people out of colonial poverty and the effects thereof.
That would require a total redistribution of wealth which in turn requires that the will of the people be expressed in the actions of the government.
The poor do not rule in Africa so this is a non-starter .</div></div>

A Journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
The poor do not rule anywhere???


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lastly, for now, can you reference any sources that back up your claim that the cause of poverty in Africa is primarily racism and not capitalism because I think that claim is a way of excusing capitalism for some reason I can only guess at.</div></div>

Check the confession of John Stockwell, the youtube links I gave you earlier.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went to and listened to the two links you provided to back up your racism claim and only was able to hear the first half of the first because of a computer problem and about 2/3 of the second and all Stockwell had to say in what I hears was that it was a north- south thing and Stockewell used the expression THird World War because iut was a U.S/CIA war on the Third World, not on black people not against brown people but against poor Third World. Nothing at all about racism being a factor.
Try reading the 29 page introduction to 'Killing Hope&quot; by William Blum available on the web by Googling &quot;Killing Hope&quot; and then take a look at the list of countries in which Blum details CIA interventions. Some are African but most are not and Blum (also ex-CIA) also never says that racism is a major factor. How can it be in CIA interventions in Italy, Hungary, Greece, Nicaragua, Chile, Iran etc?
Have you ever Googled &quot; the cause of poverty in Africa&quot; and read what comes up?</div></div>

Sometimes Third world is a euphemism for non-Anglo-Saxon countries.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You should.</div></div>

All the time
when you have seen the entire clip link me back....thats only a primer.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zimbabwe's people have only changed their masters. Zimbabwe's political system is undemocratic and those who own the factories and the means of production and who possess the wealth rule just as in the United States after its revolution.
A few reforms, even the vaunted land reform which has resulted in a third of the farms failing does not make much difference in the lives of most Zimbabweans and these small changes in no way point to a continuance of reforms.</div></div>

http://www.zimbabwesituation.org/?p=22904

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Besides, no one has ever reformed a Zimbabwe type situation into anything that seriously improved the lives of the poor because poverty is a natural part of capitalism and even more so in poor countries.

As said, time will tell and in the case of Zimbabwe all signs point to a downturn rather than a continuance of the small gains of 2010. That has been the history of the Third World under capitalism and nothing has changed within capitalism to indicate any chance of serious change.

The monied folks will not allow any change unless it is at the point of a gun and they are the ones with the most guns.
</div></div>

We have been down this road too many times already to go there again.

johnnycakes
11-27-2010, 10:37 PM
Franksterr,
So you admit that there is a travel ban and now you want to change the subject to the lack of enforcement ?

Those site also carry a lot of reports of how travelers to Cuba were prosecuted.
The point that you are missing is that the ban is in effect to prevent Cuba from getting the U.S. tourist dollars.
Just the fact that the law is in effect means that most Americans will not go to Cuba just as many will not smoke marijuana even though the penalties are not big.
If you travel without the hard-to-get permission you will be interrogated by the F.B.I, you'll need to hire an expensive lawyer, spend time in court and no one I know would be willing to do that for a vacation. That keeps most Americans away from going to Cuba and helps punish Cuba for having a socialist economy.
The travel ban works quite well to serve its purposes.


Quote:
&quot;Cuba is working along the lines of Marx's &quot;To each according to their needs and from each according to their ability to give&quot;
It's a concept both alien to capitalism and for the most part impossible under capitalism because under capitalism money is piled up in private hands and there is not enough to go around for the rest , resulting in starvation, malnutrition, homelessness etc,,


Is that the case in those capitalist Scandinavian countries?


Franksterr,
You're being disingenuous here.
I know I have pointed out that the Scandinavian countries while being capitalist have wide ranging and very expensive remediation programs to counteract the poverty that is endemic to all capitalist economies.

What the Scandinavian countries do is not possible in the United States which is the richest country (maybe) and absolutely, positively and undeniably n NOT possible in the poor Third World countries which is what these conversations have all been about.

The Scandinavian countries are not exceptions to the rule, it's just that they tax highly and are more humane than the other rich capitalist countries.

As for providing statistics etc on the universality of the benefits of Cuba's socialist economy sorry, that would take a very long time and you would choose not to believe it. If you cannot take the word of the World Health Organization or the United Nations people then I can't help you.
You're interested in the truth. Go find it for yourself. You don't accept my word or the sources I provide so it is the best thing for you to do.


Lastly this:
&quot;Sometimes Third world is a euphemism for non-Anglo-Saxon countries.&quot;

Franksterr, with all due respect, I have to say this is the weakest argument you could present to back up your claim that it is racism and not capitalism that causes poverty.
As said and shown, there are hundreds of sites that back me up and none that back up your racism claim.
Stockwell is a relative latecomer and he never says word one about racism which he surely would if it were a prominent factor in the U.S. imperial interventions which are all about money.
The United States has intervened in countries like Italy, Greece, and others that are predominantly white, many countries that are Hispanic, Iran Iraq, Lebanon and many others in Asia and Africa both north and south.

It seems that you have a need to support capitalism and are so in denial that you can interpret what Stockwell has to say as hinting at racism.

You would not be able to have any intelligent person look at Stockwell's videos and come to the same conclusion that you have.
Try it on someone doing post grad work in political science if you dare..


I checked out this site you referenced- http://www.zimbabwesituation.org/?p=22904 when I said that the few reforms put in place were insignificant in the overall picture. In reference to the land reform program in which big white owned farms were broken up and given to small black farmers, the report said :


The study’s lead author, Ian Scoones from the UK’s Institute of Development Studies at Sussex University, told BBC News he was “genuinely surprised” to see how much activity was happening on the farms visited during the 10-year study.
“People were getting on with things in difficult circumstances and doing remarkably well,” he said.
HE DECLINES , HOWEVER TO CHARACTERISE IT AS A SUCCESS.

The rest of that story is replete with many facts on many things that have gone wrong with the Zimbabwe land reform program. Maybe you should read it through.
The big cash crop tobacco has dropped in production as has maize mainly because the small farmers do not have the agricultural know-how of the replaced white farmers who ran agribusinesses and not inefficient small farms.


From my previous post:
&quot;Besides, no one has ever reformed a Zimbabwe type situation into anything that seriously improved the lives of the poor because poverty is a natural part of capitalism and even more so in poor countries.

The monied folks will not allow any change unless it is at the point of a gun and they are the ones with the most guns.&quot;



To which you understandably backed away from addressing because it is the undeniable truth and you have no answer to the capitalist-caused poverty except to say, without substance, that it is racism that is the cause of poverty under capitalism.
I have over 200 websites that agree with me.


We can and should delineate our respective ideologies.
I support Cuban style socialism and the Cuban electoral form and believe that the Cuban system can work in any country. I am unalterably opposed to capitalism except as practiced and only possible in Scandinavia.

I believe that you 1) unalterably support capitalism and 2) a multi-party electoral system. and 3) that you are opposed to socialism.

Yes or no ?

franksterr
11-28-2010, 04:23 PM
johnnycakes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So you admit that there is a travel ban and now you want to change the subject to the lack of enforcement ?</div></div>

Please show where and when did I deny a travel ban, I ask a question???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those site also carry a lot of reports of how travelers to Cuba were prosecuted.
The point that you are missing is that the ban is in effect to prevent Cuba from getting the U.S. tourist dollars.</div></div>

Thats more in line with my understanding there is a &quot;trading with the enemy&quot; thing going, in the sense that one should not spend money in particular US dollars in Cuba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just the fact that the law is in effect means that most Americans will not go to Cuba just as many will not smoke marijuana even though the penalties are not big.
If you travel without the hard-to-get permission you will be interrogated by the F.B.I, you'll need to hire an expensive lawyer, spend time in court and no one I know would be willing to do that for a vacation. That keeps most Americans away from going to Cuba and helps punish Cuba for having a socialist economy.
The travel ban works quite well to serve its purposes. </div></div>

Do Americans still travel to Cuba?
Is the ban being enforced?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
&quot;Cuba is working along the lines of Marx's &quot;To each according to their needs and from each according to their ability to give&quot;
It's a concept both alien to capitalism and for the most part impossible under capitalism because under capitalism money is piled up in private hands and there is not enough to go around for the rest , resulting in starvation, malnutrition, homelessness etc,,


Is that the case in those capitalist Scandinavian countries?



You're being disingenuous here.
I know I have pointed out that the Scandinavian countries while being capitalist have wide ranging and very expensive remediation programs to counteract the poverty that is endemic to all capitalist economies.

What the Scandinavian countries do is not possible in the United States which is the richest country (maybe) and absolutely, positively and undeniably n NOT possible in the poor Third World countries which is what these conversations have all been about.</div></div>

No I am not being ingeniousness..
I am asking you questions that you should have ask yourself.
It has been done in Scandinavian countries, which are not as rich as the US...so really why cant the US do it?
You say it has been done in Cuba??? Is Cuba a rich country???
Zimbabwe has done a first step!!! Is Zimbabwe Rich?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Scandinavian countries are not exceptions to the rule, it's just that they tax highly and are more humane than the other rich capitalist countries.</div></div>

The WILL of the leaders.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for providing statistics etc on the universality of the benefits of Cuba's socialist economy sorry, that would take a very long time and you would choose not to believe it. If you cannot take the word of the World Health Organization or the United Nations people then I can't help you.
You're interested in the truth. Go find it for yourself. You don't accept my word or the sources I provide so it is the best thing for you to do. </div></div>

I ask for it and I do value them


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lastly this:
&quot;Sometimes Third world is a euphemism for non-Anglo-Saxon countries.&quot;

Franksterr, with all due respect, I have to say this is the weakest argument you could present to back up your claim that it is racism and not capitalism that causes poverty.
As said and shown, there are hundreds of sites that back me up and none that back up your racism claim.
Stockwell is a relative latecomer and he never says word one about racism which he surely would if it were a prominent factor in the U.S. imperial interventions which are all about money.
The United States has intervened in countries like Italy, Greece, and others that are predominantly white, many countries that are Hispanic, Iran Iraq, Lebanon and many others in Asia and Africa both north and south.</div></div>


Post the links that purport that African poverty is not a result of racism????
Then you do not know the first thing about racism - you think it is about black and white.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eKMspN-7Co&amp;feature=related
First lesson Greeks and Italians were not considered white until the late 1800.
http://professorwhatif.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/what-if-youre-not-quite-white/

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems that you have a need to support capitalism and are so in denial that you can interpret what Stockwell has to say as hinting at racism.

You would not be able to have any intelligent person look at Stockwell's videos and come to the same conclusion that you have.
Try it on someone doing post grad work in political science if you dare..</div></div>

Educated to make you the fool.
You have a need to tell lies that is what I seemed to notice about you.
Capitalism and Socialism are tools, Racism is a weapon


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I checked out this site you referenced- http://www.zimbabwesituation.org/?p=22904 when I said that the few reforms put in place were insignificant in the overall picture. In reference to the land reform program in which big white owned farms were broken up and given to small black farmers, the report said :


The study’s lead author, Ian Scoones from the UK’s Institute of Development Studies at Sussex University, told BBC News he was “genuinely surprised” to see how much activity was happening on the farms visited during the 10-year study.
“People were getting on with things in difficult circumstances and doing remarkably well,” he said.
HE DECLINES , HOWEVER TO CHARACTERISE IT AS A SUCCESS.

The rest of that story is replete with many facts on many things that have gone wrong with the Zimbabwe land reform program. Maybe you should read it through.
The big cash crop tobacco has dropped in production as has maize mainly because the small farmers do not have the agricultural know-how of the replaced white farmers who ran agribusinesses and not inefficient small farms. </div></div>

Well here is what went right, as I read it One million peasants got land, that was once own by 4000 whites....That is a success.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From my previous post:
&quot;Besides, no one has ever reformed a Zimbabwe type situation into anything that seriously improved the lives of the poor because poverty is a natural part of capitalism and even more so in poor countries.

The monied folks will not allow any change unless it is at the point of a gun and they are the ones with the most guns.&quot;



To which you understandably backed away from addressing because it is the undeniable truth and you have no answer to the capitalist-caused poverty except to say, without substance, that it is racism that is the cause of poverty under capitalism.
I have over 200 websites that agree with me.</div></div>

Change has come to Zimbabwe
Post the 200 websites or even one??


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We can and should delineate our respective ideologies.
I support Cuban style socialism and the Cuban electoral form and believe that the Cuban system can work in any country. I am unalterably opposed to capitalism except as practiced and only possible in Scandinavia.

I believe that you 1) unalterably support capitalism and 2) a multi-party electoral system. and 3) that you are opposed to socialism.

Yes or no ? </div></div>

NO.....you believe wrong, I support what works in both system








[/quote]

johnnycakes
11-28-2010, 05:54 PM
F:
Please show where and when did I deny a travel ban, I ask a question???

J;
Since the ban has been in effect for 50 years I assumed that everyone interested in the Cuban revolution would know that and that your question was a way of denying it.
Again, go to Google and search under &quot;penalties for unauthorized travel to Cuba&quot;
Several said for instance that fines can be as high as $250,000.00 and there is the possibility of prison time . It is far more convincing for YOU to do what I have done to back up the veracity of my claims and use Google or whatever search engine you have because these search engines provide a wealth of information both pro and con.
Admittedly it is much like trying to get a drink of water from a fire hose and you have to do a lot of fast reading but all the info you need is there.
I cannot do all the work for you so if I tell you HOW to access it, it is incumbent upon you to read it and decide on the merits .



F:
Do Americans still travel to Cuba?
Is the ban being enforced?

J;
I think the last time I checked the figure was 80,000 per year doing it by going through a third country like Canada or Jamaica. The Cuban immigration people do not stamp an Americans passport so when they get back and go through U.S. immigration there is no way the agents can tell that person has been to Cuba.

Yes the ban is still enforced and you can't get to there from the United States without hard to get authorization usually for academic,artistic or official purposes.

The ban, as said, is a major part of the embargo intended to make life miserable for the Cuban people so that they will revolt and end the Cuban SOCIALIST revolution .




Quote:


You're being disingenuous here.
I know I have pointed out that the Scandinavian countries while being capitalist have wide ranging and very expensive remediation programs to counteract the poverty that is endemic to all capitalist economies.

What the Scandinavian countries do is not possible in the United States which is the richest country (maybe) and absolutely, positively and undeniably n NOT possible in the poor Third World countries which is what these conversations have all been about.


No I am not being ingeniousness..
I am asking you questions that you should have ask yourself.
It has been done in Scandinavian countries, which are not as rich as the US...so really why cant the US do it?
You say it has been done in Cuba??? Is Cuba a rich country???
Zimbabwe has done a first step!!! Is Zimbabwe Rich?

Franksterr:
To repeat, what I am trying to get across is that Cuba has ended the ill effects of poverty even though they are still a poor nation via a strict socialist economy.

What they have done can and has only been done in the richest, most highly developed and most civilized of the capitalist countries.

It absolutely, positively cannot be done in Zimbabwe or any other Third World capitalist country. If you want proof all you have to do is to see that it has not been done in any poor capitalist country.

Zimbabwe's land reform was a big first step but as the article you posted showed, about 1/3 of those given farm land are failing and the high levels of knowledge require for tobacco farming and large scale maize production is no longer there.
Since Zimbabwe is retaining both the corrupt multi-party electoral system and capitalism as the economic form, that one reform that is only half successful and the rise in literacy which, as discussed is a relatively inexpensive and easy thing to do are likely all the reforms of any consequence that we will see and Zimbabwe will slide right back to where they were.
We shall see.

F:
The WILL of the leaders.
J:
It is also that they have the money to do it and it is what the people want.



Quote:
Lastly this:
&quot;Sometimes Third world is a euphemism for non-Anglo-Saxon countries.&quot;

Franksterr, with all due respect, I have to say this is the weakest argument you could present to back up your claim that it is racism and not capitalism that causes poverty.
As said and shown, there are hundreds of sites that back me up and none that back up your racism claim.
Stockwell is a relative latecomer and he never says word one about racism which he surely would if it were a prominent factor in the U.S. imperial interventions which are all about money.
The United States has intervened in countries like Italy, Greece, and others that are predominantly white, many countries that are Hispanic, Iran Iraq, Lebanon and many others in Asia and Africa both north and south.

HERE IS YOUR LINK TO THE CAUSES OF POVERTY IN SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;s...QAAAKoEBU_QKEax (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;source=hp&amp;q=the+causes+of+poverty+in+ sub-Saharan+Africa&amp;btnG=Google+Search&amp;aq=f&amp;aqi=&amp;aql=&amp;o q=&amp;gs_rfai=CNwjWRdHyTNmlEIWaiwOJm9ncAQAAAKoEBU_QKE ax)

And I guess I LIED about the link. There are not 200 references as I originally thought but 640.
I've gone through about 100 of them looking for racism as a cause of poverty in SSA but couldn't find any references.



F:
You have a need to tell lies that is what I seemed to notice about you.

J:
I never lie. I don't have to because as I pointed out, the truth has a steep left bias.
I have posted erroneous info on one or two occasions due to a bad memory on a given point but liars are invariably shown to be liars so why would I try?


F:
Well here is what went right, as I read it One million peasants got land, that was once own by 4000 whites....That is a success.
J:
That was a very good thing for all the landless people and there was minimal giving of land to the well connected . .
That said, one third have not been able to farm successfully and the big money crop; tobacco has shrunk considerably as has the main food staple crop: maize.
The land reform was only a mixed success and should have been done in a way that would have helped those who are now failing..





J;
&quot;Besides, no one has ever reformed a Zimbabwe type situation into anything that seriously improved the lives of the poor because poverty is a natural part of capitalism and even more so in poor countries.

The monied folks will not allow any change unless it is at the point of a gun and they are the ones with the most guns.&quot;



To which you understandably backed away from addressing because it is the undeniable truth and you have no answer to the capitalist-caused poverty except to say, without substance, that it is racism that is the cause of poverty under capitalism.
I have over 200 websites that agree with me.


F:
Change has come to Zimbabwe
J:
Small and ephemeral change has come to Zimbabwe IMO

F:
Post the 200 websites or even one??

J: Et voila

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;s...QAAAKoEBU_QKEax (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;source=hp&amp;q=the+causes+of+poverty+in+ sub-Saharan+Africa&amp;btnG=Google+Search&amp;aq=f&amp;aqi=&amp;aql=&amp;o q=&amp;gs_rfai=CNwjWRdHyTNmlEIWaiwOJm9ncAQAAAKoEBU_QKE ax)


F:
NO.....you believe wrong, I support what works in both system

J:
Do you believe that capitalism works in the poor Third World or that multi-party electoral systems in which the parties and not the people nominate the candidates who are supposed to represent the people. ?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;s...QAAAKoEBU_QKEax (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;source=hp&amp;q=the+causes+of+poverty+in+ sub-Saharan+Africa&amp;btnG=Google+Search&amp;aq=f&amp;aqi=&amp;aql=&amp;o q=&amp;gs_rfai=CNwjWRdHyTNmlEIWaiwOJm9ncAQAAAKoEBU_QKE ax)











Edited by franksterr (11/28/10 02:59 PM)

franksterr
11-29-2010, 03:15 PM
johnnycakes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F:
Please show where and when did I deny a travel ban, I ask a question???

J;
Since the ban has been in effect for 50 years I assumed that everyone interested in the Cuban revolution would know that and that your question was a way of denying it.
Again, go to Google and search under &quot;penalties for unauthorized travel to Cuba&quot;
Several said for instance that fines can be as high as $250,000.00 and there is the possibility of prison time . It is far more convincing for YOU to do what I have done to back up the veracity of my claims and use Google or whatever search engine you have because these search engines provide a wealth of information both pro and con.
Admittedly it is much like trying to get a drink of water from a fire hose and you have to do a lot of fast reading but all the info you need is there.
I cannot do all the work for you so if I tell you HOW to access it, it is incumbent upon you to read it and decide on the merits .</div></div>


Well you thought wrong.
One of the website you link showed were the ban is not be enforced??? what then does that mean?
If I provide the links you will say its anti-Castro, to avoid that I have you provide the links where possible.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do Americans still travel to Cuba?
Is the ban being enforced?

J;
I think the last time I checked the figure was 80,000 per year doing it by going through a third country like Canada or Jamaica. The Cuban immigration people do not stamp an Americans passport so when they get back and go through U.S. immigration there is no way the agents can tell that person has been to Cuba.</div></div>

Is the ban working then or is it effective?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes the ban is still enforced and you can't get to there from the United States without hard to get authorization usually for academic,artistic or official purposes.</div></div>

But people still do, don't they....?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The ban, as said, is a major part of the embargo intended to make life miserable for the Cuban people so that they will revolt and end the Cuban SOCIALIST revolution .</div></div>

Cubans risk not only there freedom but there very lives when trying to leave Cuba.
Do Americans risk their lives when trying to visit Cuba?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Franksterr:
To repeat, what I am trying to get across is that Cuba has ended the ill effects of poverty even though they are still a poor nation via a strict socialist economy.

What they have done can and has only been done in the richest, most highly developed and most civilized of the capitalist countries.

It absolutely, positively cannot be done in Zimbabwe or any other Third World capitalist country. If you want proof all you have to do is to see that it has not been done in any poor capitalist country.</div></div>

Not True.
Really is Barbados (42) higher on the HDI than Cuba(50)???
Is Barbados a rich country???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zimbabwe's land reform was a big first step but as the article you posted showed, about 1/3 of those given farm land are failing and the high levels of knowledge require for tobacco farming and large scale maize production is no longer there.
Since Zimbabwe is retaining both the corrupt multi-party electoral system and capitalism as the economic form, that one reform that is only half successful and the rise in literacy which, as discussed is a relatively inexpensive and easy thing to do are likely all the reforms of any consequence that we will see and Zimbabwe will slide right back to where they were.
We shall see.</div></div>

Of course there are problems and failures, when you start out on a project for the first time, especially when you have powerful external and internal enemies everything is not going to be perfect.
Once they have accomplish something it is easy to do....if thats they case please refrain from mentioning Cuba's literacy success since its is easy to do.
Wonder why all those other countries are not successful with their literacy campaigns???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F:
The WILL of the leaders.
J:
It is also that they have the money to do it and it is what the people want.</div></div>

It all comes down to the WILL of the leaders.





<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HERE IS YOUR LINK TO THE CAUSES OF POVERTY IN SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;s...QAAAKoEBU_QKEax (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;source=hp&amp;q=the+causes+of+poverty+in+ sub-Saharan+Africa&amp;btnG=Google+Search&amp;aq=f&amp;aqi=&amp;aql=&amp;o q=&amp;gs_rfai=CNwjWRdHyTNmlEIWaiwOJm9ncAQAAAKoEBU_QKE ax)

And I guess I LIED about the link. There are not 200 references as I originally thought but 640.
I've gone through about 100 of them looking for racism as a cause of poverty in SSA but couldn't find any references. </div></div>

Well what have you found?

I plug in the above and since it was not a direct link to any specific site I went with the first one and got suggestions or studies done by the World Bank as to the cause of poverty in Africa.
THE WORLD BANK/IMF ARE ENGINES OF POVERTY CREATION.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrynBzUpyag&amp;feature=related
Countries that did they opposites to what they have been recommending did better and those who followed their advise did worst....are you recommending these people?

What are you now afraid to link me a direct website?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J:
I never lie. I don't have to because as I pointed out, the truth has a steep left bias.
I have posted erroneous info on one or two occasions due to a bad memory on a given point but liars are invariably shown to be liars so why would I try? </div></div>

Six a one half dozen of the other. I accept that it was due to bad memory.
I hope you are as forgiving should I suffer a lapse in memory.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That was a very good thing for all the landless people and there was minimal giving of land to the well connected . .
That said, one third have not been able to farm successfully and the big money crop; tobacco has shrunk considerably as has the main food staple crop: maize.
The land reform was only a mixed success and should have been done in a way that would have helped those who are now failing..</div></div>

Everything has a learning curve, nevertheless the opening post to this thread shows were their have been an 8% improvement already.,


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;Besides, no one has ever reformed a Zimbabwe type situation into anything that seriously improved the lives of the poor because poverty is a natural part of capitalism and even more so in poor countries.

The monied folks will not allow any change unless it is at the point of a gun and they are the ones with the most guns.&quot;</div></div>

Zimbabwe is doing it


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To which you understandably backed away from addressing because it is the undeniable truth and you have no answer to the capitalist-caused poverty except to say, without substance, that it is racism that is the cause of poverty under capitalism.
I have over 200 websites that agree with me.</div></div>

Racist no longer proudly voice or display their racism.... but their actions and results speaks volumes.
Here is a quote from one of the links under your recommended search
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="color: #FF0000">Many developing nations are in debt and poverty partly due to the policies of international institutions such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Their programs have been heavily criticized for many years for resulting in poverty.</span> In addition, for developing or third world countries, there has been an increased dependency on the richer nations. This is despite the IMF and World Bank’s claim that they will reduce poverty.

Following an ideology known as neoliberalism, and spearheaded by these and other institutions known as the “Washington Consensus” (for being based in Washington D.C.), Structural Adjustment Policies (SAPs) have been imposed to ensure debt repayment and economic restructuring. But the way it has happened has required poor countries to reduce spending on things like health, education and development, while debt repayment and other economic policies have been made the priority.<span style="font-size: 14pt"> In effect, the IMF and World Bank have demanded that poor nations lower the standard of living of their people.</span></span></div></div>
http://www.globalissues.org/article/3/structural-adjustment-a-major-cause-of-poverty

The World bank is a Cause of poverty in Africa.....do you see it?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Change has come to Zimbabwe
J:
Small and ephemeral change has come to Zimbabwe IMO</div></div>

Change that the people find to be good, only time will tell if it is ephemeral.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;s...QAAAKoEBU_QKEax (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;source=hp&amp;q=the+causes+of+poverty+in+ sub-Saharan+Africa&amp;btnG=Google+Search&amp;aq=f&amp;aqi=&amp;aql=&amp;o q=&amp;gs_rfai=CNwjWRdHyTNmlEIWaiwOJm9ncAQAAAKoEBU_QKE ax)</div></div>

Same as above.....
The world bank is a racist organization...first 15 minutes are relevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aigaLewlJl0

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you believe that capitalism works in the poor Third World or that multi-party electoral systems in which the parties and not the people nominate the candidates who are supposed to represent the people. ? </div></div>

Barbados.
Their are facets of capitalism that works, which depends a lot on the people using the capitalist system.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;s...QAAAKoEBU_QKEax (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;source=hp&amp;q=the+causes+of+poverty+in+ sub-Saharan+Africa&amp;btnG=Google+Search&amp;aq=f&amp;aqi=&amp;aql=&amp;o q=&amp;gs_rfai=CNwjWRdHyTNmlEIWaiwOJm9ncAQAAAKoEBU_QKE ax)</div></div>


based on the first link, here is what World bank suggest are the causes in Africa...do you see any you agree with wholeheartedly?


<span style="font-style: italic">The consequences of poverty often reinforce its complex causes, exacerbating the problem. The study has identified the following as the main causes of poverty:

1.Inadequate access to employment opportunities

2.Inadequate physical assets, such as land and capital, and minimal access by the poor to credit even on a small scale

3.Inadequate access to the means of supporting rural development in poor regions

4.Inadequate access to markets where the poor can sell goods and services

5.Low endowment of human capital

6.Destruction of natural resources leading to environmental degradation and reduced productivity

7.Inadequate access to assistance for those living at the margin and those victimized by transitory poverty

8.Lack of participation; failure to draw the poor into the design of development programs </span>


Read at your leisure the following is some quotes from your search recommendation

Another issue that should also be considered is the multi-dimensionality of poverty recognizing the importance of other aspects of deprivation besides income such as: <span style="font-weight: bold">health, education, and housing.</span> Policymakers need to consider both monetary and non-monetary indicators in order to capture the different dimensions of poverty. To what extent do these different dimensions re-enforce each other, and what role does mutual re-enforcement play in explaining poverty persistence?

Another enormous challenge in poverty reduction is the phenomena of globalization. Albeit important for a country''s overall economic growth, globalization can also result in unemployment, as workers from previously protected industries are made redundant. This can exacerbate poverty as witnessed in countries such as Zambia after they had liberalized trade in the early 1990s.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF6666">In fact, the biggest challenge for Africa today and the future is how to convert the process of globalization into more opportunities for its people</span>.</span> This requires better measurement and monitoring of poverty in terms of outcomes in the labour market
http://www.uneca.org/eca_resources/news/131205espd_dna2.htm

johnnycakes
11-29-2010, 11:02 PM
F;
Well you thought wrong.
One of the website you link showed were the ban is not be enforced??? what then does that mean?
If I provide the links you will say its anti-Castro, to avoid that I have you provide the links where possible.

J;

Franksterr,
The ban is selectively enforced. and to repeat myself, it is an official government ban and most Americans would not choose to go because of this and so, yes, the ban is effective and prevents most U.S tourist dollars from getting to Cuba which used to be the most popular U.S tourist destination in the Caribbean.





Quote:


F:
Cubans risk not only their freedom but their very lives when trying to leave Cuba.
Do Americans risk their lives when trying to visit Cuba?

J;
If you mean the Cubans who used to try to float across the Florida Straits in unsafe craft then you are way out of date. It does not happen any more due to the immigration agreement set up after Mariel.

Are you by any chance familiar with the Dry Land Clause of the U.S's Cuban Adjustment Act?
This is quite informative.
The above mentioned clause applies to ONLY Cubans.
It says that any Cuban who can get to the Florida Keys or coast and step foot on dry land is automatically allowed to stay in the United States.
No visa, no waiting years or getting turned down for a visa at the U.S. interest section in Havana and lose the $500.00 fee,, no need to claim and prove political asylum reasons nothing, just get on shore and you're in.

Did you know about this ? and
Despite the fact that this law is in effect and Cubans have a hard life due to the U.S war on them and many have relatives in Florida inviting them in ,the Cubans are going to the United States at much lower numbers than before the revolution.

I have make this point when Jamaicans and others point out the balseros as proof of how wicked the Cuban revolution is:
Were the United States to extend the Dry Land Clause to Jamaica from which three times the number of people leave out of a quarter of the population of Cuba for the U.S. or to Haiti or to the Dominican Republic you'd be able to walk to the United States across the straits on the great number of Jamaicans and Haitians and Dominicans floating in on truck tires and beach rafts.

Were that clause extended to Africa my bet is that a whole heap of Africans would risk their lives for a chance to get to the U.S. It's the dream of most poor people in the world but in order to embarrass the Cubans the Dry Land clause was put into effect to encourage Cubans to either steal boats or to risk their lives in rickety craft on the high seas.
Franksterr:
Not True.
Really is Barbados (42) higher on the HDI than Cuba(50)???
Is Barbados a rich country???

J:
Barbados has a per capita income of about US$20,000.00 and there are only 300,000 people living on the island.
Let's talk about countries as poor as Cuba with populations of over ten million and with a per capita income equal to Cuba's which is, according to the U.S. State Department about US$4500.00.
If you want to choose to pick out the exceptions why not go with Singapore where there's more money per capita.?


Franksterr:

Of course there are problems and failures, when you start out on a project for the first time, especially when you have powerful external and internal enemies everything is not going to be perfect.

J:
Yes that's true. I guess Zimbabwe is lucky it doesn't have the U.S. trying to destroy it as it has been trying to do to Cuba for 50 years of squeezing it economically.

F:
Once they have accomplish something it is easy to do....if thats they case please refrain from mentioning Cuba's literacy success since its is easy to do.

J;
As explained the Cubans and the Venezuelans both used the method of utilizing VOLUNTEER school kids to teach illiterate adults. I do not know what method was used in Zimbabwe but all credit to the government for that great accomplishment.
Perhaps someday Zimbabwe will have get the entire population to a tenth grade level as Cuba has and provide FREE pre-school through graduate school educational opportunities to all Zimbabweans as Cuba does to all its citizens.

Franksterr:
Wonder why all those other countries are not successful with their literacy campaigns?

J:
Perhaps they are not using the methods that were used in Zimbabwe or Cuba. or they ran out of money not having the dedicated volunteer teachers as Cuba does.





Franksterr:
It all comes down to the WILL of the leaders.

J:
In a non-democratic country, yes.





Quote:
HERE IS YOUR LINK TO THE CAUSES OF POVERTY IN SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;s...QAAAKoEBU_QKEax

And I guess I LIED about the link. There are not 200 references as I originally thought but 640.
I've gone through about 100 of them looking for racism as a cause of poverty in SSA but couldn't find any references.


Franksterr:
Well what have you found?

J:
Only references to debt, lack of resources/existing poverty, widespread corruption, high incidences of preventable and curable diseases like AIDS and malaria, drought, natural disasters, wars.
I was unable to find any site that had racism as a major factor in the cause of poverty in sub-Saharan Africa.
If I couldn't find anything in 100 sites then I am not about to waste any more of my time doing your research for you. I can direct you to any number of sites that link poverty to capitalism. All the leftist sites will tell you that and the others will dodge around it by talking about debt, loans, and other financial problems which lead right into capitalism.
I gave you the link to all those sites and you won't do the work to prove your point.
I would bet that you cannot find more than a few sites out of those 600 or so who mention racism as anything more than a peripheral issue as regards the causes of poverty.
It is up to you to provide the evidence.


J: I never lie. I don't have to because as I pointed out, the truth has a steep left bias.
I have posted erroneous info on one or two occasions due to a bad memory on a given point but liars are invariably shown to be liars so why would I try?


F:
Six a one half dozen of the other. I accept that it was due to bad memory.
I hope you are as forgiving should I suffer a lapse in memory.

J:
Well a lie is defined as something you say that you KNOW not to be true.
If I am mistaken or do not get a number exactly right, that cannot be defined as a lie.
If I am mistaken then it is incumbent upon the person with whom I am discussing the matter to point it out by providing some evidence of my error and not for them to call me a liar which is erroneous. In fact, were you to know that I am just mistaken and not deliberately putting out something that is untrue then you would be lying by calling me a liar.
I'm, just pointing out here that you were mistaken when you called me a liar.





Franksterr:
Everything has a learning curve, nevertheless the opening post to this thread shows where there has been an 8% improvement already.

J:
I hope it all goes as well as you hope it will. The people of Zimbabwe deserve better than what they've gone through pre-2010.
That said and given the history of the region I am just not sanguine of the long term outcome of the reform process started by Robert Mugabe.
As you have said a few times you prefer what works and as I have said a few times , we shall have to wait a few years to see what shakes out of the reforms.
We both agree that they are off to a somewhat shaky start and the wars, drought, debt, and other factors that have afflicted post-colonial SSA are far from being things of the past and could well doom the reform program.
My thoughts are with the poor multitudes who are always the ones who will live lives of misery and who will die waiting for the necessary changes somewhere off in the distant foggy horizon.



F:
Many developing nations are in debt and poverty partly due to the policies of international institutions such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank.

Their programs have been heavily criticized for many years for resulting in poverty. In addition, for developing or third world countries, there has been an increased dependency on the richer nations. This is despite the IMF and World Bank’s claim that they will reduce poverty.

Following an ideology known as neoliberalism, and spearheaded by these and other institutions known as the “Washington Consensus” (for being based in Washington D.C.), Structural Adjustment Policies (SAPs) have been imposed to ensure debt repayment and economic restructuring. But the way it has happened has required poor countries to reduce spending on things like health, education and development, while debt repayment and other economic policies have been made the priority. In effect, the IMF and World Bank have demanded that poor nations lower the standard of living of their people.

http://www.globalissues.org/article/3/structural-adjustment-a-major-cause-of-poverty

The World bank is a Cause of poverty in Africa.....do you see it?

J:
Absolutely. and the WB lends money to countries that are also white, Latino, Asian with the same terms as demanded from black African countries. It is all about money. It has nothing to do with the predominant race of the country.
The poorer the country is means that the terms mean more deprivation for the poor est segments of that country since social spending cuts are what is usually demanded in return for the loan and so the loans can be repaid.


Quote:
F;

Change that the people find to be good, only time will tell if it is ephemeral.

J;
Agreed


F:
based on the first link, here is what World bank suggest are the causes in Africa...do you see any you agree with wholeheartedly?


The consequences of poverty often reinforce its complex causes, exacerbating the problem. The study has identified the following as the main causes of poverty:

1.Inadequate access to employment opportunities

J; That's a problem of capitalist systems. There is very low unemployment in Cuba and all unemployed Cubans still keep their homes, still get enough to eat, still get to live a decent life and surely more of a decent life that the unemployed in capitalist countries

2.Inadequate physical assets, such as land and capital, and minimal access by the poor to credit even on a small scale

J: Inadequate physical assets, credit land,=lack of money= capitalist failings that hurt the poor


3.Inadequate access to the means of supporting rural development in poor regions

J:
'Inadequate access to the means&quot; = no money= capitalist failing and what you say: no will on the part of the leaders to spend the nations wealth on it or cuts in such programs demanded by international lenders

4.Inadequate access to markets where the poor can sell goods and services

J: Another failure of the free market. Socialist central planning goes far in eliminating this problem.

5.Low endowment of human capital
J;
Poor capitalist economies do not take very good care of their peoples basic needs.


6.Destruction of natural resources leading to environmental degradation and reduced productivity

J; If there is money to be made in tearing down the rain forest or strip mining or polluting things that is what happens.
Cuba is environmentally conscious because it's cheaper in the long run and socialist thought is long term as opposed to the quick buck and the world be damned capitalist mentality. In poor maritime countries the poor often dynamite the delicate reefs to catch fish. This would be unheard of in Cuba..

7.Inadequate access to assistance for those living at the margin and those victimized by transitory poverty

J;
Lack of provision for the poor is a hallmark of capitalism in poor countries and for that matter in the rich United States where some 40 million people have no health care coverage and the same number do not have enough to eat. If you're out of work in a very poor country, break a leg or get sick you're often dead,

8.Lack of participation; failure to draw the poor into the design of development programs
J:
Democracy is required for meaningful popular participation in government programs
True (representative) democracy is rare in the world and nonexistent in most countries.

I erased the last part of your post as there was nothing there to support your claim that racism is the cause of poverty in sub-Saharan Africa or anywhere in the world.

But since you are so convinced that this is so, I am sure you'll find something
that proves you correct in those 600 sites you will be going through something that actually uses the word racism as freely as you do or even once.

I can wait.

























&quot;

franksterr
11-30-2010, 03:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Franksterr,
The ban is selectively enforced. and to repeat myself, it is an official government ban and most Americans would not choose to go because of this and so, yes, the ban is effective and prevents most U.S tourist dollars from getting to Cuba which used to be the most popular U.S tourist destination in the Caribbean.</div></div>

80,000 Americans visit Cuba every yr, how is that an effective ban?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you mean the Cubans who used to try to float across the Florida Straits in unsafe craft then you are way out of date. It does not happen any more due to the immigration agreement set up after Mariel.</div></div>

Fine if you say that it does not happening anymore, I do hope this is not another memory lapse?
How do Cubans get to Miami these days?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you by any chance familiar with the Dry Land Clause of the U.S's Cuban Adjustment Act?
This is quite informative.
The above mentioned clause applies to ONLY Cubans.
It says that any Cuban who can get to the Florida Keys or coast and step foot on dry land is automatically allowed to stay in the United States.
No visa, no waiting years or getting turned down for a visa at the U.S. interest section in Havana and lose the $500.00 fee,, no need to claim and prove political asylum reasons nothing, just get on shore and you're in.

Did you know about this ? and </div></div>

Yes Have heard about it before.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Despite the fact that this law is in effect and Cubans have a hard life due to the U.S war on them and many have relatives in Florida inviting them in ,the Cubans are going to the United States at much lower numbers than before the revolution.</div></div>

That could be because it is now illegal in Cuba to travel to the US without special governmental permission.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have make this point when Jamaicans and others point out the balseros as proof of how wicked the Cuban revolution is:
Were the United States to extend the Dry Land Clause to Jamaica from which three times the number of people leave out of a quarter of the population of Cuba for the U.S. or to Haiti or to the Dominican Republic you'd be able to walk to the United States across the straits on the great number of Jamaicans and Haitians and Dominicans floating in on truck tires and beach rafts.</div></div>

I am not convince that that would be true, for yrs Jamaicans did not need a visa to visit or take up residence in England when England was the #1 Superpower and this was not the case then.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Were that clause extended to Africa my bet is that a whole heap of Africans would risk their lives for a chance to get to the U.S. It's the dream of most poor people in the world but in order to embarrass the Cubans the Dry Land clause was put into effect to encourage Cubans to either steal boats or to risk their lives in rickety craft on the high seas.
Franksterr:</div></div>

A whole heap of Africans are doing that now, in many parts of Europe…and there is no dry land clause. So the dry land clause may not be the motivation. What Motivates the African are conditions at home, luckily in most cases no African government is deny the ability to leave or re-enter with the threat of imprisonment.

Not True.
Really is Barbados (42) higher on the HDI than Cuba(50)???
Is Barbados a rich country???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Barbados has a per capita income of about US$20,000.00 and there are only 300,000 people living on the island.
Let's talk about countries as poor as Cuba with populations of over ten million and with a per capita income equal to Cuba's which is, according to the U.S. State Department about US$4500.00.
If you want to choose to pick out the exceptions why not go with Singapore where there's more money per capita.?</div></div>

Look you said choose a capitalist country, you did not specify demographics.
What is it you want to tell me about Singapore?



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes that's true. I guess Zimbabwe is lucky it doesn't have the U.S. trying to destroy it as it has been trying to do to Cuba for 50 years of squeezing it economically.</div></div>

Maybe you haven’t been paying attention or your memory is foggy on what is happening in Zimbabwe.
Mugabe has just successful wrest the land from the colonialist and is now going to try to do the same with the economy. Zimbabwe is under sanctions 8 yrs now, and has been under the threat of sanctions and regime change his whole tenure.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Franksterr:
It all comes down to the WILL of the leaders.

J:
In a non-democratic country, yes.</div></div>

In Every country.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
HERE IS YOUR LINK TO THE CAUSES OF POVERTY IN SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;s...QAAAKoEBU_QKEax



J:
Only references to debt, lack of resources/existing poverty, widespread corruption, high incidences of preventable and curable diseases like AIDS and malaria, drought, natural disasters, wars.
I was unable to find any site that had racism as a major factor in the cause of poverty in sub-Saharan Africa.
If I couldn't find anything in 100 sites then I am not about to waste any more of my time doing your research for you. I can direct you to any number of sites that link poverty to capitalism. All the leftist sites will tell you that and the others will dodge around it by talking about debt, loans, and other financial problems which lead right into capitalism.
I gave you the link to all those sites and you won't do the work to prove your point.
I would bet that you cannot find more than a few sites out of those 600 or so who mention racism as anything more than a peripheral issue as regards the causes of poverty.
It is up to you to provide the evidence. </div></div>

Who or what has created that indebtedness?
Where are the resources going?
Who is infecting the people and spreading diseases?


J:
Well a lie is defined as something you say that you KNOW not to be true.
If I am mistaken or do not get a number exactly right, that cannot be defined as a lie.
If I am mistaken then it is incumbent upon the person with whom I am discussing the matter to point it out by providing some evidence of my error and not for them to call me a liar which is erroneous. In fact, were you to know that I am just mistaken and not deliberately putting out something that is untrue then you would be lying by calling me a liar.
I'm, just pointing out here that you were mistaken when you called me a liar.[/quote]

I already told you I accept that it was due to bad memory.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope it all goes as well as you hope it will. The people of Zimbabwe deserve better than what they've gone through pre-2010.
That said and given the history of the region I am just not sanguine of the long term outcome of the reform process started by Robert Mugabe.
As you have said a few times you prefer what works and as I have said a few times , we shall have to wait a few years to see what shakes out of the reforms.
We both agree that they are off to a somewhat shaky start and the wars, drought, debt, and other factors that have afflicted post-colonial SSA are far from being things of the past and could well doom the reform program.
My thoughts are with the poor multitudes who are always the ones who will live lives of misery and who will die waiting for the necessary changes somewhere off in the distant foggy horizon. </div></div>

Only time will tell



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Absolutely. and the WB lends money to countries that are also white, Latino, Asian with the same terms as demanded from black African countries. It is all about money. It has nothing to do with the predominant race of the country.
The poorer the country is means that the terms mean more deprivation for the poor est segments of that country since social spending cuts are what is usually demanded in return for the loan and so the loans can be repaid.</div></div>


Did you not see the youtube link that exposes racism within WB?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F:
based on the first link, here is what World bank suggest are the causes in Africa...do you see any you agree with wholeheartedly?


The consequences of poverty often reinforce its complex causes, exacerbating the problem. The study has identified the following as the main causes of poverty:

1.Inadequate access to employment opportunities

J; That's a problem of capitalist systems. There is very low unemployment in Cuba and all unemployed Cubans still keep their homes, still get enough to eat, still get to live a decent life and surely more of a decent life that the unemployed in capitalist countries

<span style="font-style: italic">Is it legal to be unemployed in Cuba?</span>

2.Inadequate physical assets, such as land and capital, and minimal access by the poor to credit even on a small scale

J: Inadequate physical assets, credit land,=lack of money= capitalist failings that hurt the poor
<span style="font-style: italic"> Who are opposing land reform?, who is sanctioning Zimbabwe?</span>

3.Inadequate access to the means of supporting rural development in poor regions

J:
'Inadequate access to the means&quot; = no money= capitalist failing and what you say: no will on the part of the leaders to spend the nations wealth on it or cuts in such programs demanded by international lenders

<span style="font-style: italic">The countries wealth is being used to service debt.</span>

4.Inadequate access to markets where the poor can sell goods and services

J: Another failure of the free market. Socialist central planning goes far in eliminating this problem.

<span style="font-style: italic">These monies are being held by foreign banks</span>

5.Low endowment of human capital
J;
Poor capitalist economies do not take very good care of their peoples basic needs.

<span style="font-style: italic"> World bank structural adjustment policies</span>


6.Destruction of natural resources leading to environmental degradation and reduced productivity

J; If there is money to be made in tearing down the rain forest or strip mining or polluting things that is what happens.
Cuba is environmentally conscious because it's cheaper in the long run and socialist thought is long term as opposed to the quick buck and the world be damned capitalist mentality. In poor maritime countries the poor often dynamite the delicate reefs to catch fish. This would be unheard of in Cuba..

<span style="font-style: italic">imperialism and sap</span>

7.Inadequate access to assistance for those living at the margin and those victimized by transitory poverty

J;
Lack of provision for the poor is a hallmark of capitalism in poor countries and for that matter in the rich United States where some 40 million people have no health care coverage and the same number do not have enough to eat. If you're out of work in a very poor country, break a leg or get sick you're often dead,

<span style="font-style: italic"> SAP</span>

8.Lack of participation; failure to draw the poor into the design of development programs
J:
Democracy is required for meaningful popular participation in government programs
True (representative) democracy is rare in the world and nonexistent in most countries.</div></div>


In short they are all cause by neo-colonialist practicing racism against Africans



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I erased the last part of your post as there was nothing there to support your claim that racism is the cause of poverty in sub-Saharan Africa or anywhere in the world.</div></div>


That’s insincere as the search you provided is replete with info source from the world bank which I have shown is a racist organization.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But since you are so convinced that this is so, I am sure you'll find something
that proves you correct in those 600 sites you will be going through something that actually uses the word racism as freely as you do or even once.</div></div>

Main Stream Racist organization no longer advertise their racism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YglfSxXF8KU&amp;feature=related
I have no need to the very first one proves my point, The WB is a racist organization.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can wait. </div></div>

Wait for what, I have already shown the WB as a racist organization.
Second lesson on racism..

&quot;There has always been racism. But it developed as a leading principle of thought and perception in the context of colonialism. That's understandable. When you have your boot on someone's neck, you have to justify it. The justification has to be their depravity. It's very striking to see this in the case of people who aren't very different from one another. Take a look at the British conquest of Ireland, the earliest of the Western colonial conquests. It was described in the same terms as the conquest of Africa. <span style="font-weight: bold">The Irish<span style="text-decoration: underline"> were</span> a different race.</span> They weren't human. They weren't like us. We had to crush and destroy them. No. It has to do with conquest, with oppression. If you're robbing somebody, oppressing them, dictating their lives, it's a very rare person who can say: &quot;Look, I'm a monster. I'm doing this for my own good.&quot; Even Himmler didn't say that. A standard technique of belief formation goes along with oppression, whether it's throwing them in gas chambers or charging them too much at a corner store, or anything in between. The standard reaction is to say: 'It's their depravity. That's why I'm doing it. Maybe I'm even doing them good.' If it's their depravity, there's got to be something about them that makes them different
from me. What's different about them will be whatever you can find.&quot;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&amp;address=389x6097830

- Noam Chomsky
Noam Chomsky: I think that the most important issue that's being raised by this conference is the question of reparations – namely,<span style="font-weight: bold"> European reparations for the destruction of Africa. Africa's a wreck and it's not because it was hit by an asteroid. It's a wreck largely because it was hit by Europe</span>. Is anybody responsible for this? The US played a role, but in this case it was a secondary role. There is a declassified State Department paper from 1948 that outlines what the US intended to do with various regions of the world after World War II. The US decided to take the Middle East and Asia. When it came to Africa, the document essentially says that we're not so interested in Africa, <span style="font-weight: bold">so we'll give it to the Europeans to &quot;exploit&quot;—that's the word used—for their reconstruction</span>. Remember, Europe was a mess after the war. Now, given the history of European-African interaction, one can imagine another proposal, namely, that Europe be given to Africa for its reconstruction. I can imagine that. Of course, there is talk at the conference about debt relief. That's okay, but how about massive reparations for what happened?
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200108--.htm

johnnycakes
11-30-2010, 06:14 PM
Franksterr,

The purpose of colonialism is for rich and powerful countries to wrest money and other valuable resources (which also boils down to money) from poorer and weaker countries.

It's that simple.
That rich white colonialists don't care about the lives of the poor black, brown, yellow or in Latin America white skinned people has long been evident.

They are not punishing them, taking what they have because they are of a different race.
They are exploiting them because they want their money.

If the entire world only held white skinned people that exploitation and colonialism would still be taking place.

It is rich and powerful against poor and weak.

And it is all about money.

If you wish to deny this is true then that's fine with me.

I've said all I'm going to on this matter because we're just going in circles here and not accomplishing much.

We do both agree that one of us will be proven right at some indeterminate time in the future and especially as regards sub-Saharan Africa.

Let's take up the matters of how Cuba and Zimbabwe are doing in a year or so or immediately if something major occurs in either country that bears on what we've already discussed.

franksterr
12-01-2010, 06:54 AM
johnnycakes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The purpose of colonialism is for rich and powerful countries to wrest money and other valuable resources (which also boils down to money) from poorer and weaker countries. </div></div>

Racism is a weapon of colonialism/imperialism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's that simple.
That rich white colonialists don't care about the lives of the poor black, brown, yellow or in Latin America white skinned people has long been evident.</div></div>

Racism is about power not skin.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are not punishing them, taking what they have because they are of a different race.
They are exploiting them because they want their money.</div></div>

They would not do it if they considered these people the same as themselves. So it goes without saying they are doing it because they are different .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the entire world only held white skinned people that exploitation and colonialism would still be taking place.</div></div>

Exploitation is a permanent facet of the human societies. There is unethical and ethical exploitation. Racism is a feature of unethical exploitation.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is rich and powerful against poor and weak.

And it is all about money.</div></div>

Its not all about money, it is about power.
And keeping the “others” powerless.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you wish to deny this is true then that's fine with me.

I've said all I'm going to on this matter because we're just going in circles here and not accomplishing much. </div></div>

I T is not only about money, money is a means to power….it is all about power.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We do both agree that one of us will be proven right at some indeterminate time in the future and especially as regards sub-Saharan Africa.

Let's take up the matters of how Cuba and Zimbabwe are doing in a year or so or immediately if something major occurs in either country that bears on what we've already discussed.</div></div>

I am right right now.

johnnycakes
12-01-2010, 08:47 AM
Franksterr,

You said
&quot;I am right right now.&quot;

See if you can get anyone to agree with you about racism being anything but a peripheral cause of poverty in Africa. or in Latin America or Asia.

In the United States with a white majority and about a 12% black population, racism absolutely and positively is the cause of the disproportionate number of blacks living in poverty.

You stand alone in thinking as you do.

franksterr
12-01-2010, 07:24 PM
johnnycakes


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">See if you can get anyone to agree with you about racism being anything but a peripheral cause of poverty in Africa. or in Latin America or Asia.


You stand alone in thinking as you do.
</div></div>

I do not know what to think of your response, Did you or did you not see the youtube link that proved that the world bank is a racist institution?

You believe that America a nation led by racist whites, will have and institution run by other racist whites, that promoted policies that are not racially motivated and maintained? If so then they would not be racist.



<span style="font-weight: bold">Globalization, race, and African economic development intersect in deep, intricate, complicated ways that can only be understood if a long view is taken on the nature of globalization. Further, the connections are best contextualized as an inquiry into Africa’s place in the world system. As Filomina Steady points out, <span style="color: #FF0000">many factors are involved, including the institutionalization of “economic domination through corporate globalization,” </span>which has generated a reproduction of colonization and, consequently, impoverishment. Other factors include “protracted recession, the debt burden, Structural Adjustment Programmes, externally controlled privatization, … an emphasis on exports, … a cultural crisis of major proportions, … the destruction of many African economies, social dislocations and civil strife,” all “compounded by the erosion of the life-supporting capacities of many African ecosystems. Authoritarian regimes and gender-based discrimination complete the picture”</span> (Steady 2002).

THE ROOTS OF GLOBALIZATION
Most analysis on globalization focuses on the contemporary era. A few scholars take the long view, however, dating globalization back into the distant past. This perspective considers it an imperialistic process, inclusive of “the age of exploration,” the period of the transatlantic slave trade, the “legitimate trade,” so named to signal its purveyors’ noninvolvement in the slave trade, in spite of the use of slave labor to plant, harvest, and/or gather commodities that were used in the factories during Europe’s industrial revolution. The trade was undertaken in the period immediately following the end of the transatlantic slave trade, and lasted from the late eighteenth to the nineteenth century colonization, and the postcolonial era. This immediately puts “race” front and center in discussions of the connections between globalization, race, and African economic development. European imperialism created a paradoxical relationship between Africa and Europe that included both a centralized and marginalized position for Africa in global political and economic systems. Africa was central to the extent that it was plundered, raped, and exploited for its human and material resources. It was marginal because it did not have any power in the emerging global system, where Western dominance was built upon Africa’s plundered resources. <span style="font-weight: bold">It was also marginal because the West’s dominance was predicated upon Africans’ <span style="color: #FF0000">presumed racial, cultural, and physiological inferiority to Europeans, </span>a belief that was proclaimed by many of the most distinguished Western intellectuals.</span>
From the fifteenth century to the 1930s, samples of “exotic” peoples, including Africans, were acquired and displayed—for “education” and entertainment—in the homes of the wealthiest Europeans and in public exhibits at zoos and regional and world fairs. <span style="font-weight: bold">Upon this foundation was built racist and essentialist consensus of the early twenty-first century: that Africa is a basket case of impoverished, diseased, and crisis-ridden countries led by inept and kleptocratic leaders, and that its marginality to global political, social, and economic affairs is therefore well earned.</span>
THE ROLE OF GLOBAL FINANCIAL FORCES
A better way to understand Africa’s predicament is to focus on how the conjunctures between structural inequities and failing markets generate underdevelopment. The consequences of these conjunctures in the black community in the United States include being underserved in education, health care, and housing security, while also being overcharged and offered less credit than others. White monopolies are also entrenched in the job market and many career ladders. Blacks bear the spillover costs when whites flee to the suburbs, which leads to smaller tax rolls to maintain public services and provide requisite infrastructure in cities. The cycle continues when black neighborhoods are replaced and appropriated through gentrification and white return to urban centers.

This is similar to conditions in Africa, whose people and land were enslaved, underdeveloped, and overexploited to guarantee capitalist development in Europe. <span style="font-weight: bold">As Walter Rodney observes, “Racism, violence and brutality were the concomitants of the capitalist system when it extended itself abroad in the early centuries of international trade” (Rodney 1973).</span> Consider, as Timothy Shaw has done, the relationship between the political-existential condition of the continent and the analytical-epistemological inquiry of its historical and contemporary experiences. Existentially and politically, Africa stands in the gap between nominal or flag independence and the legacy of underdevelopment bestowed on it by its encounters with imperialism and globalization (which dates as far back as the fifteenth century). Epistemologically, scholars have tried to explain why Africa is so embattled. As Shaw notes, those who do more successful analysis take a historical and critical perspective.

ASPECTS OF GLOBALIZATION
Globalization is best conceived as a process of inexorable worldwide integration that applies to all spheres of life. Historically, it is a process that encompasses the internationalization of trade, manufacturing, and business enterprises. As it relates to Africa, the transatlantic slave trade, “legitimate trade,” and the activities of the Royally Chartered Companies from various European countries were part of the early markers of globalization and the precursors of current foreign direct investment. Race, racism, and gender affect social conditions and economic development initiatives in Africa in a myriad of ways. Globalization cannot be understood outside the context of how neo-liberal economic ideology has saturated the scholarly and popular imagination worldwide.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Historically, the idea that Africans belong to an inferior race has been pervasive in European and American thought. The concept of “race”—the socially constructed categorization of humans based on external appearance, stereotypes, and myths about physical, mental and psychological capacity; cultural difference; and the capacity to be civilized or uncivilized—has been deployed to support a hierarchy in which Europeans are categorized as superior and Africans the most debased. From the earliest Christian exegesis to Shakespeare and his heirs in Western literature and on to theories of scientific racism, black has been predominantly characterized as evil, while white has been seen as good and pure. <span style="font-weight: bold">Consequently, social discrimination, economic exclusion, and racial segregation have marginalized peoples of African descent from global political, social, and economic systems.</span> Moving from the margins to the center in these systems has proved to be challenging and, in some cases, elusive. A historical scholarly analysis, meanwhile, takes African marginalization as a timeless reality generated by characteristics that are argued to be essential to Africans.</span>The presumption of an intrinsic and immutable African racial inferiority has generated a self-fulfilling prophecy in Africa’s marginality. This has led to a conflation of presumed racial inferiority, economic impoverishment, and lack of political power. This “reality” is so disheartening, and African educational systems are so mired in the reproduction of colonial ideological “Otherizing” of Africans, that many Africans embrace a marginalized social, political, and economic characterization as emerging out of something deep in their nature.

There is overwhelming evidence of the depth of social privations in the African continent. The debate on the future is defined as being between Afro-pessimistic and Afro-optimistic perspectives. The Afro-pessimists, observing that anomie, disillusionment, and alienation have become pervasive among the impoverished majority (a condition made even more difficult by the flamboyant gestures of the noveau riche), see no hope for positive, autonomous development. In particular, they see the problems faced by the continent as driven by domestic stimuli, including the failure of leadership exemplified by a kleptocratic “politics of the belly,” through which criminalized states sponsor “economies of plunder.” The Afro-optimists do not dispute that the age of globalization has also coincided with the rending of the social fabric in the African continent, but they are hopeful that an African renaissance will emerge out of the detritus of the continent’s historical experiences. For them, the sources of Africa’s marginalization are external, derived from the exploitation of the age of exploration and colonization. Even independence and postcolonial relations have brought new kinds of economic dependency and the persistence of colonization in other forms. Yet while the imposition of changes that have benefited external forces has rendered African communities weaker in many respects, it has also made them stronger in others, because a few people have become extremely wealthy, and new forms of communal organization for self help have been instituted to provide services that the state is no longer willing or able to offer. It is out of the stronger elements of African resilience that its renaissance is expected to spring. Pervasive and enduring social inequalities will only be defeated with dogged and relentless planning and an optimistic belief in African agency.

DEVELOPMENT ISSUES
There is a North-South divide in development, with the countries of the Northern Hemisphere more economically buoyant and stable than the countries of the South. However, Africa lags behind other regions in the Southern Hemisphere in assessments of economic development. This is obvious in comparisons of social and economic indicators, which reveal that—in contrast with the rest of the world, which grew at a rate of approximately 2 percent from the 1960s to 2000—Africa experienced negative growth rates from 1974 to the 1990s. From 1990 to 1994, the growth rates dropped as low as –1.5 percent. Africa experienced an 11 percent decline in gross domestic product (GDP) between the 1970s and 2004. While one in every ten poor persons in the world was African in 1970, one in every two poor persons was African in 2000. This represented 140 million people in 1975 and 360 million in 2000, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research. Compared with the rest of the world, Africa has also experienced a profound lack of investment. While investment in East Asia has grown an average of 30 percent since 1975, African countries experienced a decline of 8.5 percent, despite World Bank and International Monetary Fund (IMF) directed economic reforms, with most of the minuscule investment directed toward the public sector.

Education and health are generally regarded as the two critical variables that shape human capital, and Africa also performs worse in these areas than East Asia. Compared with East Asian countries, where primary school enrollment rate was almost 100 percent in the 1960s, Africa averaged only 42 percent enrollment, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research. This grew to 60 percent between 1996 and 2004 in sub-Saharan Africa, compared with 74 percent in the Middle East and North Africa, 79 percent in South Asia, 93 percent in Latin America and the Caribbean, and 96 percent in East Asia. Life expectancy is also low in Africa. It stood at a little more than forty years in 1960, compared with sixty-two in East Asia. From 2002 to 2004, sub-Saharan Africa experienced an increase in life expectancy, but only to forty-six years, while East Asia and the Pacific region experienced an increase to seventy years. Latin America, meanwhile, had a life expectancy of seventy-one in 2004, while in the Middle East and North Africa it was a little more than sixty-nine years.

According to the IMF, the World Bank, and renowned economists such as Alassane D. Ouattara and Joseph Stiglitz, there is nothing intrinsically positive or negative about globalization. This is similar to the contention that the phenomenon produces antinomies that generate economic growth, improvements in health, and advances in telecommunications technology in some countries, regions, and sectors, while also producing the opposite phenomena in other places. Ouattara claims that African countries do not benefit from globalization because they refuse to open up their economies, persist in the implementation of flawed policies, have weak institutions, and lack transparency, thus causing external investors to mistrust and avoid them. Stiglitz, in contrast, places the blame squarely on the IMF and the World Bank, due to their erroneous ideological commitment to the market-driven policies that they recommend to jump-start economic development in countries where poor institutions, incomplete markets, and imperfect information coexist, as is the case in Africa.

Critics of globalization believe that trade liberalization creates an environment that destroys domestic industries. They hold that the liberalization of capital markets favors wealthier and more efficient foreign financial interests and banks, and that privatization of state-owned enterprises favors the emergence of a small, predatory, capital-owning class that dominates an economy, particularly where there are few legal restraints on their activities. Compounding the problem, the IMF’s commitment to market fundamentalism and the interests of lenders and the rich ensures the implementation of policies endorsed by the neoliberal Washington Consensus. The destructive consequences of such policies are exemplified by the economic collapse of the “East Asian Tigers” (South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore) in the 1990s. Many argue for more democracy and increased transparency in multilateral institutions, which will help give voice to the developing countries that are being impacted by these policies.

Because it rewards market-oriented policies to the exclusion of all else, contemporary globalization is often held responsible for the dismal state of African economies. A pro-market bias generates the antinomies observed, where some sectors, countries, and world regions thrive and others deteriorate. The debacle faced by African countries must also be blamed on the decision makers who ignore the general good in favor of sectional, and sometimes personal, interests.
http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/5934/African-Economic-Development.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1UH_QYhkPw

johnnycakes
12-01-2010, 09:49 PM
Franksterr,
I read the article in your last post twice
What I took away from it is that racism played a major role in the brutal treatment and murderous exploitation of the continent during the colonial period.
The parts of the article did say that Africans themselves came to believe that what the racists said about Africans being inherently inferior was true and this added to the occupation by white racists held the development of the continent back.

After the end of colonial rule and the taking over of governments by the Africans, the article goes on to say, the problems became problems of imbalance of trade, debt, globalization, kleptocracies, income disparity and all the other ills of neo-colonialism having to do with economic problems and racism is not mentioned as a factor in the post colonial period.

I most certainly agree that the white colonial rule of Africa was deeply and horribly racist but do not see that racism in an all black country can be possible.
Nor can the people of African countries be exploited unless their leaders are in cahoots with those who would exploit them.
I do not see that Africans today consider themselves inherently inferior racially but rather that they are the victims of a global economy in which they cannot compete because of underdevelopment that has not changed appreciably since the end of colonial rule and the assumption of powers by Africans and debt incurred by the b African heads of state since the end of colonial rule.

The unequal terms of trade is, as said in the article, a north/south thing ; the developed world exploiting the undeveloped and underdeveloped world. That would include much of Latin America where the only racism is the white populations victimizing the Native American populations. Both white (Hispanic) and Native American populations of Latin America are in most countries still exploited by the highly developed countries of the North in the same way as the poorer and less developed African countries and while bankers and corporate heads on an individual basis may dislike black people, they don't have to live with them and all they want is their money.

So yes , racism was a key factor in how Africa got to be in such rough shape up to independence when the racists didn't care what they did to people they considered inferior or not human but AFTER independence it was no longer personal. Black Africans both ruled and ran their own economies. It was their money or resources that the neo-colonial economic powers of the north wanted and as I pointed out, the white people in Latin America suffered from the same economic exploitation before and after their colonial periods the same as Africans before and after their independence.

That's why I believe that nowadays the problems are within the continent's systems.
and why I think that both socialist economies and the participation of the people in the decision making processes of government are needed .

When debt payments take all the money needed for infrastructure and social development programs and decisions are made on how the country is to be run and how the resources will be allocated by banks and corporations in the rich countries, there is little difference in the disastrous effects on the infrastructures, development and the lives of millions upon millions living on a dollar a day.

We have a basic disagreement on the causes of the present problems of Africa that will go unresolved.

I am a communist. I believe in the eventuality and inevitability of a communist/anarchic society as described by Noam Chomsky.

For the present however, the best that can be done is for the interim steps of a largely socialist (state run) economy to spread the necessities of life to every person and a form of electoral government wherein the people actually have a meaningful participation and not just the 30 seconds of &quot;democracy&quot; they get by voting and then never getting to have a say in what the elected do in their name.

It is also my belief that capitalism has not, does not and cannot work in the poor and under developed countries of the world and with the globalization of competitive capitalism the ability of the poorer countries to become livable is decreasing.

Below here is the end of the article you posted :

&quot;According to the IMF, the World Bank, and renowned economists such as Alassane D. Ouattara and Joseph Stiglitz, there is nothing intrinsically positive or negative about globalization. This is similar to the contention that the phenomenon produces antinomies that generate economic growth, improvements in health, and advances in telecommunications technology in some countries, regions, and sectors, while also producing the opposite phenomena in other places. Ouattara claims that African countries do not benefit from globalization because they refuse to open up their economies, persist in the implementation of flawed policies, have weak institutions, and lack transparency, thus causing external investors to mistrust and avoid them. Stiglitz, in contrast, places the blame squarely on the IMF and the World Bank, due to their erroneous ideological commitment to the market-driven policies that they recommend to jump-start economic development in countries where poor institutions, incomplete markets, and imperfect information coexist, as is the case in Africa.

Critics of globalization believe that trade liberalization creates an environment that destroys domestic industries. They hold that the liberalization of capital markets favors wealthier and more efficient foreign financial interests and banks, and that privatization of state-owned enterprises favors the emergence of a small, predatory, capital-owning class that dominates an economy, particularly where there are few legal restraints on their activities. Compounding the problem, the IMF’s commitment to market fundamentalism and the interests of lenders and the rich ensures the implementation of policies endorsed by the neoliberal Washington Consensus. The destructive consequences of such policies are exemplified by the economic collapse of the “East Asian Tigers” (South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore) in the 1990s. Many argue for more democracy and increased transparency in multilateral institutions, which will help give voice to the developing countries that are being impacted by these policies.

Because it rewards market-oriented policies to the exclusion of all else, contemporary globalization is often held responsible for the dismal state of African economies. A pro-market bias generates the antinomies observed, where some sectors, countries, and world regions thrive and others deteriorate. The debacle faced by African countries must also be blamed on the decision makers who ignore the general good in favor of sectional, and sometimes personal, interests.&quot;

franksterr
12-02-2010, 09:57 AM
As I am in a rush I will not post in my usually fashion, as it seems to me you have stoop to a new low.

You are not just in denial but intellectual dishonest !



<span style="font-weight: bold">Globalization, race, and African economic development intersect in deep, intricate, complicated ways that <span style="color: #FF0000">can only be understood if a long view is taken </span>on the nature of globalization. Further, the connections are best contextualized as an inquiry into Africa’s place in the world system. <span style="text-decoration: underline">As Filomina Steady points out, many factors are involved, including the institutionalization of “economic domination through corporate globalization,” </span><span style="color: #FF0000">which has generated a reproduction of colonization and, consequently, impoverishment. Other factors include “protracted recession, the debt burden, Structural Adjustment Programmes, externally controlled privatization, … an emphasis on exports, … a cultural crisis of major proportions, … the destruction of many African economies, social dislocations and civil strife,” </span>all “compounded by the erosion of the life-supporting capacities of many African ecosystems. Authoritarian regimes and gender-based discrimination complete the picture” (Steady 2002).</span>

That was written in 2002 about the the present state of affairs, Corporate globalization is a recent and current phenomena.
When during the colonial period did you have “structural adjustment programmes, debt burdens privatizations etc.. in Africa


<span style="font-weight: bold"> European imperialism created a paradoxical relationship between Africa and Europe that included both a centralized and marginalized position for Africa in global political and economic systems. Africa was central to the extent that it was plundered, raped, and exploited for its human and material resources. It was marginal because it did not have any power in the emerging global system, where Western dominance was built upon Africa’s plundered resources. <span style="color: #FF0000">It was also marginal because the West’s dominance was predicated upon Africans’ presumed racial, cultural, and physiological inferiority to Europeans, a belief that was proclaimed by many of the most distinguished Western intellectuals.</span>From the fifteenth century to the 1930s, samples of “exotic” peoples, including Africans, were acquired and displayed—for “education” and entertainment—in the homes of the wealthiest Europeans and in public exhibits at zoos and regional and world fairs. <span style="color: #FF0000">Upon this foundation was built racist and essentialist consensus of the <span style="text-decoration: underline">early <span style="font-size: 14pt">twenty-first century</span></span>: that Africa is a basket case of impoverished, diseased, and crisis-ridden countries led by inept and kleptocratic leaders, and that its marginality to global political, social, and economic affairs is therefore well earned.</span></span>

The author is taking the long view as mention in the begining up to the 21st century- thats today

Finally in order to me himself clear the author drew parrells between the treatment of blacks in America today and the the treatments of Africans today....What are blacks experiencing in America - RACISM

<span style="font-weight: bold">A better way to understand Africa’s predicament is to focus on how the conjunctures between structural inequities and failing markets generate underdevelopment. The consequences of these conjunctures in the black community in the United States include being underserved in education, health care, and housing security, while also being overcharged and offered less credit than others. White monopolies are also entrenched in the job market and many career ladders. Blacks bear the spillover costs when whites flee to the suburbs, which leads to smaller tax rolls to maintain public services and provide requisite infrastructure in cities. The cycle continues when black neighborhoods are replaced and appropriated through gentrification and white return to urban centers.

<span style="font-size: 11pt">This is similar to conditions in Africa</span>, whose people and land were enslaved, underdeveloped, and overexploited to guarantee capitalist development in Europe. As Walter Rodney observes, “Racism, violence and brutality were the concomitants of the capitalist system when it extended itself abroad in the early centuries of international trade” (Rodney 1973). </span>

Finally in closing the author states the timelessness of this situation meaning it is ongoing to the extent that it is all so being internalize by Africans.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Historically, the idea that Africans belong to an inferior race has been pervasive in European and American thought. The concept of “race”—the socially constructed categorization of humans based on external appearance, stereotypes, and myths about physical, mental and psychological capacity; cultural difference; and the capacity to be civilized or uncivilized—<span style="color: #FF0000">has been deployed to support a hierarchy in which Europeans are categorized as superior and Africans the most debased. From the earliest Christian exegesis to Shakespeare and his heirs in Western literature and on to theories of scientific racism, black has been predominantly characterized as evil, while white has been seen as good and pure. </span>Consequently, social discrimination, economic exclusion, and racial segregation have marginalized peoples of African descent from global political, social, and economic systems. Moving from the margins to the center in these systems has proved to be challenging and, in some cases, elusive. A historical scholarly analysis, meanwhile, takes African marginalization as a timeless reality generated by characteristics that are argued to be essential to Africans.The presumption of an intrinsic and immutable African racial inferiority has generated a self-fulfilling prophecy in Africa’s marginality. This has led to a conflation of presumed racial inferiority, economic impoverishment, and lack of political power. This “reality” is so disheartening, and African educational systems are so mired in the reproduction of colonial ideological “Otherizing” of Africans, that many Africans embrace a marginalized social, political, and economic characterization as emerging out of something deep in their nature.</span>


The &quot;Bell curve&quot; is a recent example of scientific racism., the whole idea is that racism and ideas about race and Africans being inferior are still popular in America and Europe. This is not a historical document, what the author is doing is giving you the long view.

johnnycakes
12-02-2010, 12:22 PM
If you are correct then it means that the problem is a worldwide one in which the top dog capitalists are running the show and as a result, their racist attitudes enable them to impoverish Africa and the rest of the Third World.
Africa is now black ruled so the racism is exerted from outside and evidenced by the exploitation of the imperial capitalists and the wealthy of these African countries.

Were the world socialist and Africa capitalist and the exploitation stopped, the problems of Africa would still be there because they are derived from poverty, an intrinsic part of capitalism.
The Africans have, since independence, chosen to retain capitalism which does not work in impoverished Third World countries. They have chosen to retain the undemocratic multi-party electoral systems that give the masses of people no say.
They themselves have chosen what their colonial masters once forced upon them.

If you choose to advocate for the status quo by touting reform of what is, you bear the burden of supporting the immiseration and yearly death tolls of the poor across sub-Saharan Africa.

Revolutionary change is needed, not the piddling reforms that you advocate instead and that somehow always fail to make a dent in the horrors, the millions of deaths caused by poverty or racism if you like.

Nothing like what Africans are going through happens to Cubans. If you want to niggle about the Cuban's inability to travel or say everything they want while all the while the Cuban systems that you so abhor have ended the horrors of the capitalist/imperialist exploitation that still affect Africans and produce the ubiquitous bloated Kwashiokor starving African baby pictures, go to it.

You say that you are for the things that work yet you are opposed to what Cuba has and which works. You advocate Mugabe-like reforms that are minimally effective in ending the misery. Poor Africans die while you work for the status quo by supporting reformation of what is not correctable by the incremental reforms you back.

You cannot end the yearly deaths of millions of sub-Saharan Africans by fighting racism. You can only do this by fighting the capitalist exploitation of the continent.

You have one hell of a nerve criticising anyone while millions die as people like Mugabe live in splendor and experiment with the lives of millions by showcasing non-workable reforms as those millions suffer and die year after year as these reforms fail to take hold or fail to make much of a difference.
Your policies have much the same effects on the poor of Zimbabwe and a Africa in general as the policies of the white exploiters.

What I advocate has been proven to work and there is no reason why it cannot work in any other poor Third World country.

Reform of corrupt political systems (not even being attempted in Africa) and reform of capitalist economies which perpetuate poverty have been shown to never work in poor Third World countries.

If racism were to disappear overnight and capitalism and totalitarianism remained, things would not change one iota in Zimbabwe or anywhere in the poor Third World.

You cannot both advocate adherence to what doesn't work and care about the lives of the poor and the millions dying in Africa.

But then what do I know after some 40 years of studying imperialism and reading and relying for the truth from people like Noam Chomsky and sources like ZNET?

Franksterr,
You have your way of thinking, I have mine and they are polar opposites except that we both care about the fate of the millions of poor people in the world.
We are never going to agree except on that point on the obvious fact that time will tell which of us is correct. In the meanwhile, millions will live in misery and die and that is what is of paramount importance..

franksterr
12-02-2010, 01:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read the article in your last post twice
What I took away from it is that racism played a major role in the brutal treatment and murderous exploitation of the continent during the colonial period.</div></div>
No doubt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The parts of the article did say that Africans themselves came to believe that what the racists said about Africans being inherently inferior was true and this added to the occupation by white racists held the development of the continent back.</div></div>
Okay



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After the end of colonial rule and the taking over of governments by the Africans, the article goes on to say, the problems became problems of imbalance of trade, debt, globalization, kleptocracies, income disparity and all the other ills of neo-colonialism having to do with economic problems and racism is not mentioned as a factor in the post colonial period. </div></div>

Do please show where in the article that led you to that ridiculous idea…
Allow me the following question
What is meant by the term “nominal or flag independence”?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As Filomina Steady points out, many factors are involved, including the institutionalization of “economic domination through corporate globalization,” which has <span style="font-weight: bold">generated a reproduction of colonization</span> and, consequently, impoverishment. Other factors include “protracted recession, the debt burden, Structural Adjustment Programmes, externally controlled privatization, … an emphasis on exports, … a cultural crisis of major proportions, … </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I most certainly agree that the white colonial rule of Africa was deeply and horribly racist but do not see that racism in an all black country can be possible.</div></div>
Well maybe you need to take off those socialist blinders

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nor can the people of African countries be exploited unless their leaders are in cahoots with those who would exploit them. </div></div>
Did you figure out what is meant by nominal or flag independence? When and if you do you will know the answer to that question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not see that Africans today consider themselves inherently inferior racially but rather that they are the victims of a global economy in which they cannot compete because of underdevelopment that has not changed appreciably since the end of colonial rule and the assumption of powers by Africans and debt incurred by the b African heads of state since the end of colonial rule.</div></div>
Your eyes need checking?
Africans cannot compete because of rampant racism in international trade.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As Filomina Steady points out, many factors are involved, including the institutionalization of <span style="text-decoration: underline">“economic domination through corporate globalization,”</span>….. The trade was undertaken in the period immediately following the end of the transatlantic slave trade, and lasted from the late eighteenth to the nineteenth century colonization, and the postcolonial era. This immediately puts “race” front and center in discussions of the connections between globalization, race, and African economic development…… Consequently, social discrimination, economic exclusion, and racial segregation have marginalized peoples of African descent from global political, social, and economic systems</div></div>
Those debts were not incurred, they were forced on.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The unequal terms of trade is, as said in the article, a north/south thing ; the developed world exploiting the undeveloped and underdeveloped world. That would include much of Latin America where the only racism is the white populations victimizing the Native American populations. Both white (Hispanic) and Native American populations of Latin America are in most countries still exploited by the highly developed countries of the North in the same way as the poorer and less developed African countries and while bankers and corporate heads on an individual basis may dislike black people, they don't have to live with them and all they want is their money.</div></div>

Name the countries in the North ??
Do they happen to be the former colonial nations that practice racism in Africa??
When did they stop being racist?
Racism in any form is still racism, what are you getting at??
They want more than mere money.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So yes , racism was a key factor in how Africa got to be in such rough shape up to independence when the racists didn't care what they did to people they considered inferior or not human but AFTER independence it was no longer personal. Black Africans both ruled and ran their own economies. It was their money or resources that the neo-colonial economic powers of the north wanted and as I pointed out, the white people in Latin America suffered from the same economic exploitation before and after their colonial periods the same as Africans before and after their independence. </div></div>

So because someone who is white hate Jews who are European, that means their hatred for blacks who are Africans is not racism?
What really are you saying?
Are the people in Turkey white?
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-224049-n...-to-turkey.html (http://www.todayszaman.com/news-224049-noam-chomsky-says-racism-behind-european-resistance-to-turkey.html)

[quoteThat's why I believe that nowadays the problems are within the continent's systems.
and why I think that both socialist economies and the participation of the people in the decision making processes of government are needed .[/quote]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For them, the sources of Africa’s marginalization are<span style="color: #ff0000">externa</span>l, derived from the exploitation of the age of exploration and colonization. Even independence and postcolonial relations have brought new kinds of economic dependency and the persistence of colonization in other forms. Yet <span style="color: #ff0000">while the imposition of changes that have benefited external forces has rendered African communities weaker in many respects</span>,</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When debt payments take all the money needed for infrastructure and social development programs and decisions are made on how the country is to be run and how the resources will be allocated by banks and corporations in the rich countries, there is little difference in the disastrous effects on the infrastructures, development and the lives of millions upon millions living on a dollar a day. </div></div>
Its called odious debt, do you know what that means?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have a basic disagreement on the causes of the present problems of Africa that will go unresolved.</div></div>
You need to be honest.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a communist. I believe in the eventuality and inevitability of a communist/anarchic society as described by Noam Chomsky.</div></div>

I am not a communist or a capitalist or a socialist…I go with what works. So maybe I am a mixed economist – which back in the day meant socialist to some people.
Human civilizations go thru stages, they earlier stages are never abandon, just subsumed in the next stage. The earliest stage is called the communal stage where in the barter system was develop. Second came the feudal stage where in land became individually owned and slaves/servants/serfs were needed to exploit the land. Then came the industrial stage where owning the means of products were paramount – corporations. That’s were we are …I agree next is Socialist stage, does not mean that capitalist features will not remain as China success is an example of.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the present however, the best that can be done is for the interim steps of a largely socialist (state run) economy to spread the necessities of life to every person and a form of electoral government wherein the people actually have a meaningful participation and not just the 30 seconds of &quot;democracy&quot; they get by voting and then never getting to have a say in what the elected do in their name.</div></div>
No system can guarantee democracy, as I have shown by posting the link to a socialist paper that questions Cuba democracy and shows it to be no better than Americas if not worst.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is also my belief that capitalism has not, does not and cannot work in the poor and under developed countries of the world and with the globalization of competitive capitalism the ability of the poorer countries to become livable is decreasing.</div></div>

Was Barbados, Trinidad poor and underdeveloped according to your HDI they not doing too bad.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Below here is the end of the article you posted :

&quot;According to the IMF, the World Bank, and renowned economists such as Alassane D. Ouattara and Joseph Stiglitz, there is nothing intrinsically positive or negative about globalization. This is similar to the contention that the phenomenon produces antinomies that generate economic growth, improvements in health, and advances in telecommunications technology in some countries, regions, and sectors, while also producing the opposite phenomena in other places. Ouattara claims that African countries do not benefit from globalization because they refuse to open up their economies, persist in the implementation of flawed policies, have weak institutions, and lack transparency, thus causing external investors to mistrust and avoid them. Stiglitz, in contrast, places the blame squarely on the IMF and the World Bank, due to their erroneous ideological commitment to the market-driven policies that they recommend to jump-start economic development in countries where poor institutions, incomplete markets, and imperfect information coexist, as is the case in Africa.</div></div>

Realize the author is quoting people who work for or represent the racist organizations of the IMF and the World Bank.
I would side with Stiglitz.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Critics of globalization believe that trade liberalization creates an environment that destroys domestic industries. They hold that the liberalization of capital markets favors wealthier and more efficient foreign financial interests and banks, and that privatization of state-owned enterprises favors the emergence of a small, predatory, capital-owning class that dominates an economy, particularly where there are few legal restraints on their activities. Compounding the problem, the IMF’s commitment to market fundamentalism and the interests of lenders and the rich ensures the implementation of policies endorsed by the neoliberal Washington Consensus. The destructive consequences of such policies are exemplified by the economic collapse of the “East Asian Tigers” (South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore) in the 1990s. Many argue for more democracy and increased transparency in multilateral institutions, which will help give voice to the developing countries that are being impacted by these policies.

Because it rewards market-oriented policies to the exclusion of all else, contemporary globalization is often held responsible for the dismal state of African economies. A pro-market bias generates the antinomies observed, where some sectors, countries, and world regions thrive and others deteriorate. The debacle faced by African countries must also be blamed on the decision makers who ignore the general good in favor of sectional, and sometimes personal, interests.&quot;</div></div>

The IMF policy of Globalization is imperialism.
Communism, capitalism or socialism can all be imperialistic and racist….it all comes back to the individual running the system.

johnnycakes
12-02-2010, 04:05 PM
Franksterr,
As said several times, we disagree.
As also said several times.
I support and advocate both an electoral and an economic system that is shown to have eliminated the problems of capitalist related problems prevalent and endemic in sub-Saharan Africa.
you seem opposed to it based on your criticisms and the fact that you cling to the belief in the failed and unworkable practice of reforming the existing systems.

What the people of Africa who are dying by the millions under your way need is revolutionary change not tinkering with failure in the hopes that something that has been tried over and over again and has failed to remedy the horrific conditions, will somehow work.

Maybe you have no trouble touting failure.
Maybe because it's not your children who are dying.

Radical and revolutionary change is need NOW, not tomorrow not the someday which is the best you can do with reform but NOW.

A child dies of preventable and treatable malaria or hunger in sub-Saharan Africa every 47 seconds or so.

Revolutionary change that comes tomorrow is too late for a lot of children.

Why do you wish to delay that change ?

franksterr
12-02-2010, 07:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are correct then it means that the problem is a worldwide one in which the top dog capitalists are running the show and as a result, their racist attitudes enable them to impoverish Africa and the rest of the Third World.</div></div>
Yes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Africa is now black ruled so the racism is exerted from outside and evidenced by the exploitation of the imperial capitalists and the wealthy of these African countries. </div></div>
Okay

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Were the world socialist and Africa capitalist and the exploitation stopped, the problems of Africa would still be there because they are derived from poverty, an intrinsic part of capitalism.
The Africans have, since independence, chosen to retain capitalism which does not work in impoverished Third World countries. They have chosen to retain the undemocratic multi-party electoral systems that give the masses of people no say.
They themselves have chosen what their colonial masters once forced upon them.</div></div>

Not necessary as we have the Scandinavian countries as examples of the opposite case

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you choose to advocate for the status quo by touting reform of what is, you bear the burden of supporting the immiseration and yearly death tolls of the poor across sub-Saharan Africa.</div></div>
That is due to racism….when will you get that.
You said I stand alone on that, and I presented a scholarly article on the issue yet you continue with your socialist drivel.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Revolutionary change is needed, not the piddling reforms that you advocate instead and that somehow always fail to make a dent in the horrors, the millions of deaths caused by poverty or racism if you like.</div></div>

Zimbabwe has had revolutionary change….but again you will not give them credit – blinded by an idea of socialist utopia.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing like what Africans are going through happens to Cubans. If you want to niggle about the Cuban's inability to travel or say everything they want while all the while the Cuban systems that you so abhor have ended the horrors of the capitalist/imperialist exploitation that still affect Africans and produce the ubiquitous bloated Kwashiokor starving African baby pictures, go to it.</div></div>

Wait till you are denied the right to travel???
There is no freedom of the press in Cuba, so it is very difficult to know what goin on there…as you yourself did not know of the growing problem of child prostitution there, homelessness and malnutrition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You say that you are for the things that work yet you are opposed to what Cuba has and which works. You advocate Mugabe-like reforms that are minimally effective in ending the misery. Poor Africans die while you work for the status quo by supporting reformation of what is not correctable by the incremental reforms you back.</div></div>

Cuba was prop up by mother Russia for most of its yrs since the revolution. Russia has collapse, China has reform its form of communism and accept some facets of capitalism.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You cannot end the yearly deaths of millions of sub-Saharan Africans by fighting racism. You can only do this by fighting the capitalist exploitation of the continent.</div></div>
That is the most urgent battle right now, then we move on to more important battles.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have one hell of a nerve criticising anyone while millions die as people like Mugabe live in splendor and experiment with the lives of millions by showcasing non-workable reforms as those millions suffer and die year after year as these reforms fail to take hold or fail to make much of a difference.
Your policies have much the same effects on the poor of Zimbabwe and a Africa in general as the policies of the white exploiters</div></div>
You think Castro lives in squalor like many in Cuba?.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I advocate has been proven to work and there is no reason why it cannot work in any other poor Third World country.</div></div>
Where has it work, that mother Russia has not guaranteed its survival and success?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reform of corrupt political systems (not even being attempted in Africa) and reform of capitalist economies which perpetuate poverty have been shown to never work in poor Third World countries.</div></div>
This is a repeat of the above – see Barbados, Scandinavia etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If racism were to disappear overnight and capitalism and totalitarianism remained, things would not change one iota in Zimbabwe or anywhere in the poor Third World.</div></div>
Of course it would, people would not be treated in a racist manner….take off those blinders.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You cannot both advocate adherence to what doesn't work and care about the lives of the poor and the millions dying in Africa.</div></div>

Racism is on the retreat, everywhere it is working.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But then what do I know after some 40 years of studying imperialism and reading and relying for the truth from people like Noam Chomsky and sources like ZNET?</div></div>

Not much about reality, a lot about some imaginary Cuban utopia.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Franksterr,
You have your way of thinking, I have mine and they are polar opposites except that we both care about the fate of the millions of poor people in the world.
We are never going to agree except on that point on the obvious fact that time will tell which of us is correct. In the meanwhile, millions will live in misery and die and that is what is of paramount importance..</div></div>
Why is Cuba missing from the HDI for yrs 2009/2010?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As said several times, we disagree.
As also said several times.
I support and advocate both an electoral and an economic system that is shown to have eliminated the problems of capitalist related problems prevalent and endemic in sub-Saharan Africa.
you seem opposed to it based on your criticisms and the fact that you cling to the belief in the failed and unworkable practice of reforming the existing systems.</div></div>
No! I oppose racism, which lie at the root of all of Africa problems, and I oppose its denial.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">he people of Africa who are dying by the millions under your way need is revolutionary change not tinkering with failure in the hopes that something that has been tried over and over again and has failed to remedy the horrific conditions, will somehow work. </div></div>

Socialist revolution do not end racism.
Is there still racism in Cuba, Russia and China?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
aybe you have no trouble touting failure.
Maybe because it's not your children who are dying.

Radical and revolutionary change is need NOW, not tomorrow not the someday which is the best you can do with reform but NOW.

A child dies of preventable and treatable malaria or hunger in sub-Saharan Africa every 47 seconds or so.

Revolutionary change that comes tomorrow is too late for a lot of children.

Why do you wish to delay that change ?</div></div>
All of that in Africa is cause by racism
Based on the past, a socialist/communist revolution will not change that what it will do is hide it and deny it and punish and try to discredit those who do speka out..

Is there racism in Cuba ?
I bet you that most of the poor and least educated and marginalize peoples in Cuba are peoples of African descent?

johnnycakes
12-02-2010, 11:24 PM
Franksterr,
As said, we disagree.
I will no longer debate the racism vs capitalism issue with you as we are just repeating ourselves to no purpose.

franksterr
12-04-2010, 04:57 PM
Yeah we disagree, but the facts show a distinct bias toward what I am saying.

The future is now - A Luta continua

johnnycakes
12-04-2010, 10:21 PM
Franksterr,

We disagree.

franksterr
01-03-2011, 09:08 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Franksterr,

We disagree. </div></div>

Yes we do.

franksterr
02-02-2011, 09:33 AM
true

franksterr
03-03-2011, 07:24 PM
It can never be stressed enough that Zimbabwe inherited a highly unequal land ownership pattern from apartheid Rhodesia. By 2002, 70 percent of the richest farmland still remained in the hands of just 4,500 white commercial farmers, focused mainly on producing crops for export. Meanwhile, one million indigenous families eked out a bare existence, crowded into an arid region of limited suitability for agriculture, known as the communal' areas. Fast-track land reform redistributed much of the commercial farmland to some 170,000 families. Whatever its faults in execution, the process has undeniably created a significantly more equitable distribution of land than what prevailed before.

That is not the story the Western audience hears. Instead, we are told that fast track land reform was a &quot;land grab&quot; by &quot;cronies,&quot; bringing about a more unequal distribution of land than what had preceded it. Yet the surveys conducted by the AIAS and the IDS found that most beneficiaries of land reform were ordinary people, whereas those who might be categorized as &quot;elites&quot; constituted a small minority. According to the IDS, this minority amounted to less than five percent.

But it does leave open the question of how one determines who an &quot;elite&quot; is and who is not. That one works for the government does not in itself mean that one is an &quot;elite&quot; or a &quot;crony,&quot; nor that one has necessarily ignored the application process and simply bullied one's way into being granted land. Such cases did occur, but they hardly constitute the typical experience of resettled farmers. &quot;That some of the beneficiaries are 'elites' is undisputed,&quot; notes the AIAS. &quot;What is in dispute is their character and the extent of their benefit. The tendency to generalize the notion of an 'elite' leaves unexplained the social content of the concept, and assumes that it lacks differentiation in a dynamic process of class formation.&quot; Government job holders, war veterans and ZANU-PF members are lumped together with high ranking officials as &quot;elites,&quot; or &quot;cronies&quot;. It is assumed that all bypassed the land application process in order to seize land.

http://blackagendareport.com/content/challenging-western-distortions-about-zimbabwes-land-reform

johnnycakes
03-03-2011, 09:27 PM
.&quot; Yet the surveys conducted by the AIAS and the IDS found that most beneficiaries of land reform were ordinary people, whereas those who might be categorized as &quot;elites&quot; constituted a small minority. According to the IDS, this minority amounted to less than five percent. &quot;



Read the above carefully. It is a very well written lie that will fool the uninformed every time.
This is why;
It says that &quot;most beneficiaries of land reform were ordinary people&quot;
and that &quot;those who might be categorized as elites .....amounted to five percent.&quot;


What they are not saying is that while thousands might have gotten an acre or two, the &quot;elites&quot; took 40% of the confiscated farms and they took the best 40% of those farms. That elite is mostly Mugabe family and friends.

Lies done cleverly enough for the uninformed by those with an elitist agenda.


Mugabe and allies own 40% of seized land
Dec 01 2010

Zimbabwe's president, Robert Mugabe, and his allies have seized nearly half the country's commercial farms in a land grab widely blamed for economic collapse, an investigation claims today.

Mugabe has bought the loyalty of Cabinet ministers, senior army and government officials and judges with nearly five million hectares of agricultural land, including wildlife conservancies and plantations, according to the national news agency ZimOnline.

The 86-year-old president and his wife, Grace, are said to own 14 farms spanning at least 16 000 hectares.

ZimOnline's investigation undermined the central claim behind Mugabe's land reforms: that they are give the majority of black Zimbabweans their rightful inheritance. &quot;Even though Mugabe has consistently maintained that his land reform programme is meant to benefit the poor black masses, it is him and his cronies who have got the most out of it,&quot; it argued.

A &quot;new, well-connected black elite&quot; of about 2 200 people controls nearly 40% of the 14-million hectares seized from white farmers, ZimOnline found. These range in size from 250 to 4 000 hectares in &quot;the most fertile farming regions in the country&quot;.

The past decade of land invasions -- which reduced 4 000 white farmers to 400 by murders, beatings and forced evictions -- is held responsible by many for the demise of the &quot;breadbasket of Africa&quot;.

ZimOnline said government documents and audit reports showed the biggest beneficiaries of land reform were &quot;Zanu-PF members and supporters, security service chiefs and officers and traditional chiefs who have openly sided with Mugabe and senior government officials and judges.&quot;

It said all ministers and deputy ministers in Mugabe's Zanu-PF party were multiple farm owners. These include his deputy, Joice Mujuru, and her husband, the former army general Solomon Mujuru, and their relatives, who own at least 25 farms totalling 105 000 hectares.

All Zanu-PF's 56 politburo members, 98 members of parliament and 35 elected and unelected senators were allegedly allocated farms, and all
10 provincial governors have seized them, with four being multiple owners. Sixteen supreme court and high court judges also own farms.

The report said: &quot;Of the nearly 200 officers from the rank of major to the lieutenant general in the Zimbabwe national army, 90% have farms in the most fertile parts of the country. This is replicated in the Zimbabwe republic police, Zimbabwe prisons service, air force of Zimbabwe and CIO [Central Intelligence Organisation].

'Lusted for white blood' &quot;Constantine Chiwenga, the Zimbabwe defence forces commander, who is among a cabal of defence chiefs who have publicly declared that they will only serve Mugabe, has two farms near Harare, including the 1
200-hectare Chakoma Estates, which his wife seized at gunpoint, telling a terrified white farmer that she lusted for white blood and sought the slightest excuse to kill him.&quot;

Mugabe has billed the land reforms as a black empowerment corrective to the injustices of colonialism, which left Zimbabwe's land in the hands of a tiny white minority. A recent study challenged the prevailing view that the programme had been &quot;all bad&quot; for ordinary citizens.

But ZimOnline said that while at least 150 000 people may have had access to farms, the majority owned between 10 and 50 hectares and were Zanu-PF members.

&quot;Critics who have consistently dismissed Zimbabwe's emotional land reforms as a political patronage programme by the octogenarian Mugabe to reward supporters who have kept him in power are right after all,&quot; it said.

ZimOnline noted that Zimbabwe's agricultural production had fallen by
60% since 2000 when the land invasions began. Exports from the sector fell from $1,4-billion in 2000 to nearly $700-million last year, after dipping below $500-million in 2007. ZimOnline said many farms were &quot;lying fallow either because the new owners are not that keen on farming or they simply abandoned the properties for new farms&quot;.

Zanu-PF rejected the charge. Herbert Murerwa, the lands and rural resettlement minister, was quoted as saying: &quot;The fact that a handful of people may have more than one farm does not detract from the overwhelming success of the land reform where the government has created
300 000 farmers over the last 10 years.&quot;

The Commercial Farmers' Union of Zimbabwe said today it was not surprised by the findings. Dean Theron, its president, said: &quot;We are the ones it's been happening to. We know the colonial history and are not opposed to land reform, but we feel very sad at the way it has taken place. The beneficiaries are not the intended ones. The farms have been dished out to people with connections.&quot;

Eddie Cross, policy coordinator general for the Movement for Democratic Change and an agricultural economist, said: &quot;It explains why Mugabe is so keen to avoid a land audit, and it certainly confirms everybody's feeling that there's a relatively small number of people in the land invasions and they're Zanu-PF acolytes. The only surprise is that it has taken so long to come out.&quot;
guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media 2010
reply

Archie68
03-09-2011, 02:32 AM
Very clever thick. However, you have not addressed the mass hunger and oppression associated with the plan you advocate. As before, it is easy to be proud and black when you have food. Such pride that feels no pain is without worth to me. Delete away.

f0rTyLeGz
03-30-2011, 07:36 PM
29 March, 2011 09:10:00
http://www.thezimbabwemail.com/zimbabwe/7667.html

HAVING largely destroyed Zimbabwe’s economy over the past decade, rendered its currency pointless and sent a huge proportion of its population scurrying out of the country in search of the most meagre subsistence, President Robert Mugabe’s game of economic thuggery has one last card, and yesterday it was played.

The platinum sector, which consists of just a handful of mines, was told it has one month to sell 50% of its shares to indigenous Zimbabweans — read members of Zanu (PF).

The law might have been a long time coming but few thought a government which experienced first- hand the effect of the brute theft of economic assets in other areas of the economy would go through with it. But another election looms, and the last barricade has to be manned. To do so, Mugabe has to pay off his military backers and offer a fillip to his narrowing support base.

No doubt the mines currently operating may soldier on, and this will be cited by the African National Congress Youth League as evidence that nationalisation is not the end of the mining sector. Yet there will be no mention of the opportunities lost because no one will dare start a new mine in a country where their investment will be snatched precisely when it becomes valuable.

The critical part of the announcement in the Zimbabwean Government Gazette yesterday states that &quot;the value of the shares or other interests required to be disposed of to a designated entity shall be calculated on a basis of valuation agreed to between the minister and the non-indigenous mining business concerned, which shall take into account the state’s sovereign ownership of the mineral or minerals exploited or proposed to be exploited by the non-indigenous business concerned&quot;.

In other words, the government will set the price and we can assume that it will bear little resemblance to the actual value. South African shareholders in the two major mines in Zimbabwe will need to brace themselves because they are about to get screwed, a fact indicated by the dramatic fall in the share prices of Impala and Aquarius yesterday.

You can’t but wonder where the South African government stands in all of this. Here are South African assets effectively being stolen. In most countries that would result in angry declarations and strained relations. Yet SA has for so long turned a blind eye to the theft of its citizens’ property by the Zimbabwean government that it now happens without so much as a shrug.

The Zimbabwean government might try to claim that its actions are justified since SA has it own indigenisation programme, black economic empowerment (BEE). Yet, the comparison is specious. BEE originates from different circumstances and, most crucially, it is an agreed programme between the government and industry. The Zimbabwean programme is not.

Hence, the Zimbabwean tragedy continues, more potential and jobs will be lost and a new wave of Zimbabwean economic refugees will flood SA. What do you do when a government refuses to notice the obvious? And that question could be asked as much of the government in SA as that in Zimbabwe.

franksterr
04-04-2011, 02:57 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very clever thick. However, you have not addressed the mass hunger and oppression associated with the plan you advocate. As before, it is easy to be proud and black when you have food. Such pride that feels no pain is without worth to me. Delete away. </div></div>

Its not pride,,,, its integrity and dignity....Plus they are many hungry Zimbabweans who feel the pain and still support Mugabe because what he is doing is right and good for them and all Zimbabweans in the long term.

That's the point when you hungry, most times you cannot think straight.....so those of us who are hungry will vote our stomachs which is only good for this hunger, instead we should vote our conscience which is better for all, for a longer time.

Okay so it is no longer mass starvation but mass hunger??? Most of the world suffers from mass hunger!! due in no small party to global racism.
Second most of the hunger in Zimbabwe is a direct result of western policies in particular Structural Adjustment and Sanctions




Cost of livin' gets so high,
Rich and poor they start to cry:
<span style="color: #FF0000">Now the weak must get strong;</span>
They say, &quot;Oh, what a tribulation!&quot;
Them belly full, but we hungry;
<span style="font-weight: bold">A hungry mob is a angry mob.</span>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fhxiAHeYs8
<span style="color: #FF0000">Trying to belittle our
Integrity now.</span>
They say what we know
Is just what they teach us;
And we're so ignorant
'Cause every time they can
reach us (shoobe, doo-wa)
<span style="font-weight: bold">Through political strategy (shoo-be, doo-wa);
They keep us hungry (shoobe, doo-wa),
And when you gonna get some
food (shoobe, doo-wa),
Your brother got to be your enemy</span>, we-e-ell!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcaPyViy8wM

franksterr
04-04-2011, 03:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">29 March, 2011 09:10:00
http://www.thezimbabwemail.com/zimbabwe/7667.html

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HAVING largely destroyed Zimbabwe’s economy over the past decade, rendered its currency pointless and sent a huge proportion of its population scurrying out of the country in search of the most meagre subsistence, President Robert Mugabe’s game of economic thuggery has one last card, and yesterday it was played.</div></div>

Mugabe Made Zimbabwe the &quot;bread basket&quot; of Africa for the decade of the 80's and much 90's what was the cause of the downturn???

[quote]The platinum sector, which consists of just a handful of mines, was told it has one month to sell 50% of its shares to indigenous Zimbabweans — read members of Zanu (PF).

The law might have been a long time coming but few thought a government which experienced first- hand the effect of the brute theft of economic assets in other areas of the economy would go through with it. But another election looms, and the last barricade has to be manned. To do so, Mugabe has to pay off his military backers and offer a fillip to his narrowing support base.</div></div>

Indigenization is not thuggery, the resources of the country should benefit the people too not just rich white foreigners.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No doubt the mines currently operating may soldier on, and this will be cited by the African National Congress Youth League as evidence that nationalisation is not the end of the mining sector. Yet there will be no mention of the opportunities lost because no one will dare start a new mine in a country where their investment will be snatched precisely when it becomes valuable.</div></div>

I wont bet on that, the investors alone cannot be the only beneficiaries of the mines. I am confident we will find interested party who are also socially responsible and fair.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The critical part of the announcement in the Zimbabwean Government Gazette yesterday states that &quot;the value of the shares or other interests required to be disposed of to a designated entity shall be calculated on a basis of valuation agreed to between the minister and the non-indigenous mining business concerned, which shall take into account the state’s sovereign ownership of the mineral or minerals exploited or proposed to be exploited by the non-indigenous business concerned&quot;.</div></div>

In quite a few countries it is the law that for foreigners to start up a business of this nature where the will be exploiting local resources they must partner up with a local.
This is how industrialization is started.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In other words, the government will set the price and we can assume that it will bear little resemblance to the actual value. South African shareholders in the two major mines in Zimbabwe will need to brace themselves because they are about to get screwed, a fact indicated by the dramatic fall in the share prices of Impala and Aquarius yesterday.</div></div>
Everything has a learning curve.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can’t but wonder where the South African government stands in all of this. Here are South African assets effectively being stolen. In most countries that would result in angry declarations and strained relations. Yet SA has for so long turned a blind eye to the theft of its citizens’ property by the Zimbabwean government that it now happens without so much as a shrug.</div></div>

They have the same problems looming at home, which they are deathly afraid of addressing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Zimbabwean government might try to claim that its actions are justified since SA has it own indigenisation programme, black economic empowerment (BEE). Yet, the comparison is specious. BEE originates from different circumstances and, most crucially, it is an agreed programme between the government and industry. The Zimbabwean programme is not.</div></div>

There was a Zimbabwe program, but industry(Blair) reneged thinking that Mugabe had no where to turn except beg

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hence, the Zimbabwean tragedy continues, more potential and jobs will be lost and a new wave of Zimbabwean economic refugees will flood SA. What do you do when a government refuses to notice the obvious? And that question could be asked as much of the government in SA as that in Zimbabwe.
</div></div>

As long as the imperialist continue to interfere this is true

johnnycakes
04-04-2011, 05:58 PM
&quot; the investors alone cannot be the only beneficiaries of the mines. I am confident we will find interested party who are also socially responsible and fair.&quot;



In an alternative universe I'm sure this sort of thing happens all the time.

franksterr
04-04-2011, 06:44 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> &quot; the investors alone cannot be the only beneficiaries of the mines. I am confident we will find interested party who are also socially responsible and fair.&quot;



In an alternative universe I'm sure this sort of thing happens all the time. </div></div>

It happens here too.....countries like China may develop the mine in a manner that satisfy Zimbabwe and benefits Zimbabweans.

franksterr
04-04-2011, 07:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.&quot; Yet the surveys conducted by the AIAS and the IDS found that most beneficiaries of land reform were ordinary people, whereas those who might be categorized as &quot;elites&quot; constituted a small minority. According to the IDS, this minority amounted to less than five percent. &quot;



Read the above carefully. It is a very well written lie that will fool the uninformed every time.
This is why;
It says that &quot;most beneficiaries of land reform were ordinary people&quot;
and that &quot;those who might be categorized as elites .....amounted to five percent.&quot;


What they are not saying is that while thousands might have gotten an acre or two, the &quot;elites&quot; took 40% of the confiscated farms and they took the best 40% of those farms. That elite is mostly Mugabe family and friends.

Lies done cleverly enough for the uninformed by those with an elitist agenda.</div></div>
First Mugabe and the elites are citizens of Zimbabwe so they are entitle to land.
Second what is important is that nearly half a million people got farm land, when they had none before.
Third let the land audit fix it, Mugabe will not live for ever...better this way than none at all.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mugabe and allies own 40% of seized land
Dec 01 2010

Zimbabwe's president, Robert Mugabe, and his allies have seized nearly half the country's commercial farms in a land grab widely blamed for economic collapse, an investigation claims today. </div></div>

It is obvious that if you do not have the resources you cannot operate a commercial farm, nor can all 500,000 farms be given commercial size lands.
There still remains a need for commercial farming in Zimbabwe.....who best to get than those with access to credit and other resources

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mugabe has bought the loyalty of Cabinet ministers, senior army and government officials and judges with nearly five million hectares of agricultural land, including wildlife conservancies and plantations, according to the national news agency ZimOnline. </div></div>

It was an agreement work out when they were fighting for independence, common practice from time immemorial to reward fighters with land and general with large pieces of prize lands

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 86-year-old president and his wife, Grace, are said to own 14 farms spanning at least 16 000 hectares.

ZimOnline's investigation undermined the central claim behind Mugabe's land reforms: that they are give the majority of black Zimbabweans their rightful inheritance. &quot;Even though Mugabe has consistently maintained that his land reform programme is meant to benefit the poor black masses, it is him and his cronies who have got the most out of it,&quot; it argued. </div></div>

Who would you want to get the most, someone who possible did nothing to get it or worst work with the whites during the struggle for independence.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A &quot;new, well-connected black elite&quot; of about 2 200 people controls nearly 40% of the 14-million hectares seized from white farmers, ZimOnline found. These range in size from 250 to 4 000 hectares in &quot;the most fertile farming regions in the country&quot;.

The past decade of land invasions -- which reduced 4 000 white farmers to 400 by murders, beatings and forced evictions -- is held responsible by many for the demise of the &quot;breadbasket of Africa&quot;. </div></div>

Structural Adjustments and Sanctions are the cause for the demise.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ZimOnline said government documents and audit reports showed the biggest beneficiaries of land reform were &quot;Zanu-PF members and supporters, security service chiefs and officers and traditional chiefs who have openly sided with Mugabe and senior government officials and judges.&quot;

It said all ministers and deputy ministers in Mugabe's Zanu-PF party were multiple farm owners. These include his deputy, Joice Mujuru, and her husband, the former army general Solomon Mujuru, and their relatives, who own at least 25 farms totalling 105 000 hectares. </div></div>

Again common practice the world over.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All Zanu-PF's 56 politburo members, 98 members of parliament and 35 elected and unelected senators were allegedly allocated farms, and all
10 provincial governors have seized them, with four being multiple owners. Sixteen supreme court and high court judges also own farms.

The report said: &quot;Of the nearly 200 officers from the rank of major to the lieutenant general in the Zimbabwe national army, 90% have farms in the most fertile parts of the country. This is replicated in the Zimbabwe republic police, Zimbabwe prisons service, air force of Zimbabwe and CIO [Central Intelligence Organisation].

'Lusted for white blood' &quot;Constantine Chiwenga, the Zimbabwe defence forces commander, who is among a cabal of defence chiefs who have publicly declared that they will only serve Mugabe, has two farms near Harare, including the 1
200-hectare Chakoma Estates, which his wife seized at gunpoint, telling a terrified white farmer that she lusted for white blood and sought the slightest excuse to kill him.&quot;

Mugabe has billed the land reforms as a black empowerment corrective to the injustices of colonialism, which left Zimbabwe's land in the hands of a tiny white minority. A recent study challenged the prevailing view that the programme had been &quot;all bad&quot; for ordinary citizens. </div></div>

They are Zimbabweans in a country of 12 million, it would seem like almost every adult got land.....So 'F'ing what???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But ZimOnline said that while at least 150 000 people may have had access to farms, the majority owned between 10 and 50 hectares and were Zanu-PF members.

&quot;Critics who have consistently dismissed Zimbabwe's emotional land reforms as a political patronage programme by the octogenarian Mugabe to reward supporters who have kept him in power are right after all,&quot; it said. </div></div>

150,000 is a lot of people.
Even members of MDC(the opposition) got land are they supports of Mugabe too?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ZimOnline noted that Zimbabwe's agricultural production had fallen by
60% since 2000 when the land invasions began. Exports from the sector fell from $1,4-billion in 2000 to nearly $700-million last year, after dipping below $500-million in 2007. ZimOnline said many farms were &quot;lying fallow either because the new owners are not that keen on farming or they simply abandoned the properties for new farms&quot;.</div></div>
production is increasing and what is even greater news it is no longer mono cash crop culture.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zanu-PF rejected the charge. Herbert Murerwa, the lands and rural resettlement minister, was quoted as saying: &quot;The fact that a handful of people may have more than one farm does not detract from the overwhelming success of the land reform where the government has created
300 000 farmers over the last 10 years.&quot;

The Commercial Farmers' Union of Zimbabwe said today it was not surprised by the findings. Dean Theron, its president, said: &quot;We are the ones it's been happening to. We know the colonial history and are not opposed to land reform, but we feel very sad at the way it has taken place. The beneficiaries are not the intended ones. The farms have been dished out to people with connections.&quot;

Eddie Cross, policy coordinator general for the Movement for Democratic Change and an agricultural economist, said: &quot;It explains why Mugabe is so keen to avoid a land audit, and it certainly confirms everybody's feeling that there's a relatively small number of people in the land invasions and they're Zanu-PF acolytes. The only surprise is that it has taken so long to come out.&quot;
guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media 2010
reply
</div></div>

300,000 is a lot of people.
Yes it was not perfect...
Land audit will come..but remember you cannot please all the people.

franksterr
04-30-2011, 08:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very clever thick. However, you have not addressed the mass hunger and oppression associated with the plan you advocate. As before, it is easy to be proud and black when you have food. Such pride that feels no pain is without worth to me. Delete away. </div></div>

What mass hunger there is in Zimbabwe is common to countries of that socio economic situation. Least you forget more people go to bed hungry in the USA than live in Zimbabwe.
It is truly easier to be anything when you have food, with out food you become a creature of desperation, and often times things you do and agree to you would not, if properly food secure.
I feel the pain, and its not injured pride but loss of human integrity.
why delete?

Archie68
05-13-2011, 02:35 AM
Do you want to stand on that post?

As you sit with a full belly, you speak?

What would I have done?

1. Milk the white farmers for every last bit of knowledge they had.
2. Train veterans in how to farm on large tracts of land
3. Provide some means to finance the purchase of equipment to accomplish # 2.

Stick with your proud chest beating. It is my hope the race moves past people like you. You are a cheer leader. You have no idea or plan to do anything.

As a child, JBC used to say at 8:00 AM every morning, &quot;success is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent prespiration.&quot;

YOU NEED TO STOP SUPPORTING MEN WITH NO PLAN BUT PLENTY OF PROPAGANDA!!!!

I have been there and done that. I demand more. Until black people demand more, we will get idiots like MUGABE.
Does it make you feel better that a child straves with a black leader?

I do not know what to do with &quot;people&quot; like you. You and your man worship.

Chefdonjuan
05-13-2011, 06:36 AM
I too question the truth of Mugabe's input towards economic growth. I been there in Zibawe. Is he still practicing witchcraft? What about the so called, &quot;sharing of power&quot;, with the opposition? Is he still number 5 in worst dictators in the world?

franksterr
05-13-2011, 08:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you want to stand on that post? </div></div>

I stand by all my posts.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As you sit with a full belly, you speak? </div></div>
Exactly in affords me time away from the &quot;nose to the grind&quot; mentality, as Einstein says &quot;that you can’t solve a problem with the same mindset that created it&quot;.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What would I have done?

1. Milk the white farmers for every last bit of knowledge they had.
2. Train veterans in how to farm on large tracts of land
3. Provide some means to finance the purchase of equipment to accomplish # 2.</div></div>

When will you ever learn that that is the same thing Mugabe wants for his people.
Who do you know who wouldn't want that for Zimbabweans?
You think racist white farmers are fools?? that's a rhetorical question. They wasn't about to train blacks to be their bosses
To think you really believe that black Zimbabweans do not know how to farm - is racist.
Ever wonder why there is no credit for these new black farmers? well if you did a little digging you would find the real purpose of the Sanctions.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stick with your proud chest beating. It is my hope the race moves past people like you. You are a cheer leader. You have no idea or plan to do anything.</div></div>
Yeah say what you want, it is becoming so clear to me what you are

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a child, JBC used to say at 8:00 AM every morning, &quot;success is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent prespiration.&quot; </div></div>

Yeah shovel that shyt elsewhere, No race in the this world today worked and has worked as hard as black people, todays modern society was built on the backs of blacks. We worked the fields....not some white guy. It was blacks who in sweat tears blood pain and death who work the fields that fed your belly and pockets...so do not tell me about hard work. Hard work gets you nothing but an early grave. Work smart is the key to success.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">YOU NEED TO STOP SUPPORTING MEN WITH NO PLAN BUT PLENTY OF PROPAGANDA!!!! </div></div>

Show which rulers today alive who can say I gave over 500,000 of my people land.
I gave them freedom for virtual slavery.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been there and done that. I demand more. Until black people demand more, we will get idiots like MUGABE.
Does it make you feel better that a child straves with a black leader? </div></div>

If it was a white one or black puppet, millions more would be starving, you just would not hear or read about it.....and if you do guys like you would blame the victim.

[quote]I do not know what to do with &quot;people&quot; like you. You and your man worship.
/quote]
Thank me.....for showing you the light.

franksterr
05-13-2011, 08:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Original_ChefD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I too question the truth of Mugabe's input towards economic growth. I been there in Zibawe. Is he still practicing witchcraft? What about the so called, &quot;sharing of power&quot;, with the opposition? Is he still number 5 in worst dictators in the world? </div></div>

Sure you do, You question anything that does not agree with mainstream media. That's no surprise. I am sure, if you were around in the 60's and 70's you too would be calling him a terrorist. after all thats what mainstream said he was.
You go to church? half the rulers in the west do, aint no different - witchcraft.
Yeah a dictator who give his people land and freedom for colonial slavery?
Yep a dictator who shares power? - oxy-moron.
A dictator who holds elections???....do yourself a favor learn to think for yourself.

Archie68
05-14-2011, 01:57 AM
OK tough guy. I never ment the white farmers should teach black farmers. Black people must learn the techniques. This training is available and Mugabwe should have provided that training prior to removing the land from production. Did you know?

Do you want me to link trainers of industrial farming?

Mr. Tough guy, you have a problem. You are full of fire but have no real plan of implementation. Mugabwe depends on people like you(all fire with no brain).

Are you from Kingston? What I mean is: have you live your life without any idea where your necessities came from? You do not understand the basics.

franksterr
05-15-2011, 12:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK tough guy. I never ment the white farmers should teach black farmers.</div></div>
How then are you going to &quot;milk them&quot;??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Black people must learn the techniques. This training is available and Mugabwe should have provided that training prior to removing the land from production. Did you know? </div></div>

Why do you think black Zimbabweans do not know how to run commercial farms? What gave you that idea?
Let me ask you this - who has been doing the actual farming on these commercial farms?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you want me to link trainers of <span style="font-weight: bold">industrial</span> farming?</div></div>

There is a difference between commercial and industrial
Rhodesia had very few if any (excluding government farms) industrial farms but as much as 4000 white commercial farmers.
At this point Zimbabwe has little need for Industrial farming trainers.
Presently it has more than 4000 black commercial farmers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. Tough guy, you have a problem. You are full of fire but have no real plan of implementation. Mugabwe depends on people like you(all fire with no brain).</div></div>

The only problem (more of a challenge) I have right now, is getting you to realize that the opinions you hold about Mugabe and Zimbabwe is pure unadulterated racist neo-colonial propaganda.

<span style="font-weight: bold">ANSWER ME THIS ONE QUESTION ;-<span style="color: #FF0000"> WHEN DID WHITE GOVERNMENTS STOP BEING RACIST</span>?</span>

I support Mugabe's Plan and its working.
I think he knows more about the situation in Zimbabwe than I do.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you from Kingston? What I mean is: have you live your life without any idea where your necessities came from? You do not understand the basics. </div></div>

No St.Andrew.
I learned that in primary school, all my necessities come from the earth, excluding sunshine.

Archie68
05-17-2011, 03:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I support Mugabe's Plan and its working. </div></div>

Our disagreements are composed in that quoute. I oppose Mugabe. I do no thing Mugabe has a plan. I do not think Zimbambwe is working.

Good night and my best wishes.

MsPeaches
05-17-2011, 09:01 AM
http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley_pyro.gif http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/crybaby.gif

SHAKING MY HEAD IN DISBELIEF!!!

franksterr
06-08-2011, 07:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I support Mugabe's Plan and its working. </div></div>

Our disagreements are composed in that quoute. I oppose Mugabe. I do no thing Mugabe has a plan. I do not think Zimbambwe is working.

Good night and my best wishes. </div></div>

Do you oppose Mugabe because he is black?
Events so far shows where his plans are working.
Zimbabwe is under Western Sanctions, so some things are not working.

Archie68
06-24-2011, 01:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Do you oppose Mugabe because he is black?</div></div> No.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Events so far shows where his plans are working. </div></div> What is his plan?

Do you believe your own words? You suggest Zimbabwe prospers?

I want a sample of your drug.

franksterr
07-19-2011, 10:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">Do you oppose Mugabe because he is black?</span>
No.</div></div>

Then why do you oppose him, because he is giving back the Land to the poor black landless peasnts???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-style: italic">Events so far shows where his plans are working</span>.
What is his plan?</div></div>


To return the Land and the Wealth of the Nation to the people.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you believe your own words? You suggest Zimbabwe prospers?</div></div>

YES....dont be fooled by white racist propagandist and their black hangers on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I want a sample of your drug.</div></div>

Check out your local weedman and ask for Indica.....if you can handle it

johnnycakes
07-19-2011, 11:57 AM
&quot;To return the Land and the Wealth of the Nation to the people.&quot;


Franksterr,

The reality is that Zimbabwe is a CAPITALIST country.
Not only that it is a capitalist country with a corrupt government.

Your idea of returning the land and wealth of the country to the people is the people at the top taking 40% of the best land for themselves.

I don't know many people who would agree that this is reform that will do much to change things for the masses of poor in Zimbabwe.

You sound a lot like the people who backed Obama because he promised to do so much and then when he turned out to be the same as all HIS predecessors and other capitalist rulers, they stuck with him for no other reason than not wishing to admit how wrong they were in putting their faith and confidence in just another kleptocrat (thief holding office).

franksterr
07-19-2011, 02:29 PM
johnnycakes

&quot;To return the Land and the Wealth of the Nation to the people.&quot;


Franksterr,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reality is that Zimbabwe is a CAPITALIST country.</div></div>
YES....so it is stupid to expect a communist revolution.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not only that it is a capitalist country with a corrupt government. </div></div>
The Government is not corrupt, but corruption does exist within the government, as it does in nearly ever government.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your idea of returning the land and wealth of the country to the people is the people at the top taking 40% of the best land for themselves.</div></div>

Should the people at the top get the worst land?

How the land is divide is a matter for the people and government of Zimbabwe to decide...which is usually based on ability to use and or develop.
What is important is that close to a million individual now have access to the land when before they did not.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know many people who would agree that this is reform that will do much to change things for the masses of poor in Zimbabwe.</div></div>
The fruits of the reform is already in full bloom.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You sound a lot like the people who backed Obama because he promised to do so much and then when he turned out to be the same as all HIS predecessors and other capitalist rulers, they stuck with him for no other reason than not wishing to admit how wrong they were in putting their faith and confidence in just another kleptocrat (thief holding office). </div></div>

First off Mugabe promised to get the land and give it back the people and he has done it - no empty promise there.
You have a problem with the share Mugabe and his family and comrades got, too bad, they are Zimbabweans too and are as deserving of land as every other qualified Zimbabwean, and who do you propose should have gotten those lands? - there will be a Land Audit.

And you sound like another communist promising a never before seen utopia......somewhere over the rainbow http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

johnnycakes
07-19-2011, 04:10 PM
&quot;YES....so it is stupid to expect a communist revolution.&quot;

Franksterr,

I never said that I expected a COMMUNIST revolution in Zimbabwe. It is you who made that extrapolation from what I said and meant.

In the first place, you do not understand what communism is or you never would have made that statement.

What I said was that Zimbawe is a capitalist country which means that the money and power will be directed upwards to the already rich and powerful as exemplified by the 40% land grab by those with the money and power.

Were it a DEMOCRACY it would be reversed.
I never mentioned a meaningful revolution


&quot;Should the people at the top get the worst land?
How the land is divide(d) is a matter for the people and government of Zimbabwe to decide...which is usually based on ability to use and or develop.
What is important is that close to a million individual now have access to the land when before they did not.&quot;


The question you didn't ask is: Should the people at the top, already wealthy, already in possession of very good properties get the best of the newly apportioned lands or those who are poor and landless?

How the land WAS divided was never decided by the people as you would have the brainless believe but by the people who took that best 40% for themselves, those with the power and wealth .

Those decisions were not made based on anything democratic or that 40% would never have gone to the already rich.

franksterr
07-21-2011, 09:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">YES....so it is stupid to expect a communist revolution.&quot;

Franksterr,

I never said that I expected a COMMUNIST revolution in Zimbabwe. It is you who made that extrapolation from what I said and meant.</div></div>

Only trying to move ahead to some new ground, that has not already been covered.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the first place, you do not understand what communism is or you never would have made that statement. </div></div>
Only YOU understand YOUR communist revolution.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I said was that Zimbawe is a capitalist country which means that the money and power will be directed upwards to the already rich and powerful as exemplified by the 40% land grab by those with the money and power.</div></div>

Granted For argument sake…..thought it is a great exaggeration – another case of making Mountains out of Moles hills and missing the forest for the trees.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Were it a DEMOCRACY it would be reversed.
I never mentioned a meaningful revolution</div></div>

DEMOCRACY is overrated.

Maybe you are overlooking the fact that the “poor” got land as well!!!!

So by reverse what do you mean?




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;Should the people at the top get the worst land?
How the land is divide(d) is a matter for the people and government of Zimbabwe to decide...which is usually based on ability to use and or develop.
What is important is that close to a million individual now have access to the land when before they did not.&quot;


The question you didn't ask is: Should the people at the top, already wealthy, already in possession of very good properties get the best of the newly apportioned lands or those who are poor and landless?</div></div>

Rich and poor got land, so long as they were qualified and Zimbabweans thay are entitled.
The poor where not denied land, they are still land left that has not been distributed as there is none qualified to develop and use it who have come forward.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How the land WAS divided was never decided by the people as you would have the brainless believe but by the people who took that best 40% for themselves, those with the power and wealth .</div></div>
If they were not of the people who were they if not Zimbabweans??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those decisions were not made based on anything democratic or that 40% would never have gone to the already rich.</div></div>

Who would you have get those lands, if not the people who the people of Zimbabwe decide should have it????

Your use of the terms “RICH” , “BEST LANDS” and “40%” are political code words used by the white racist in an attempt to inflame and throw into chaos a successful Land Revolution. Be careful how you buy into these terms.

johnnycakes
07-21-2011, 12:46 PM
&quot;.Only YOU understand YOUR communist revolution.&quot;

Franksterr,

This may be true of most people who simply lack an understanding of what communism is, what socialism is, what statism is, what democracy is
The information that could explain these things is readily available to those who are interested in being knowledgeable and therefore capable of carrying on an intelligent discussion in which these philosophies are being discussed.

You like many, lack the education on these matters to do so and worse , refuse to educate yourself before using the terms and in doing so, completely misstate what they mean.





&quot;DEMOCRACY is overrated&quot;


Thank you.
That, I suppose, is as close as you have come to admitting that you are a totalitarian
and why you support the sort of totalitarian rule in use in Zimbabwe and the totalitarian economic system wherein the people have no control and no say in what is done to them.

You prefer rule from the top down because according to you, it works.

In this you are in the ranks of those who supported the governments of Stalin, Hitler, the Greek junta, Franco, Mussolini, Botha, the United States etc.

The apologists for the Greek junta used to boast that the military dictatorship made the trains run on time as their big accomplishment while they tortured and murdered thousands.

How many Zimbabweans are now living outside the country because of conditions under Mugabe's rule? (At least 10%?)
Don't they know that they can have a piece of land and live good lives if they return?

Archie68
07-26-2011, 12:40 AM
You need to smoke more of your indica. Save some for me. Reality and I do not get along.

johnnycakes
07-26-2011, 01:12 AM
&quot;Reality and I do not get along.&quot;

Suspicions confirmed

franksterr
07-27-2011, 07:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;.Only YOU understand YOUR communist revolution.&quot;

Franksterr,

This may be true of most people who simply lack an understanding of what communism is, what socialism is, what statism is, what democracy is
The information that could explain these things is readily available to those who are interested in being knowledgeable and therefore capable of carrying on an intelligent discussion in which these philosophies are being discussed.

You like many, lack the education on these matters to do so and worse , refuse to educate yourself before using the terms and in doing so, completely misstate what they mean.</div></div>

Was the USSR a communist state?
Can you name an actual communist state?





<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;DEMOCRACY is overrated&quot;


Thank you.
That, I suppose, is as close as you have come to admitting that you are a totalitarian
and why you support the sort of totalitarian rule in use in Zimbabwe and the totalitarian economic system wherein the people have no control and no say in what is done to them.</div></div>

Now you are putting words in my mouth….democracy never guaranteed anyone liberty or equal access to resources.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You prefer rule from the top down because according to you, it works.</div></div>
How typical mixing the truths with out and out lies.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In this you are in the ranks of those who supported the governments of Stalin, Hitler, the Greek junta, Franco, Mussolini, Botha, the United States etc.

The apologists for the Greek junta used to boast that the military dictatorship made the trains run on time as their big accomplishment while they tortured and murdered thousands.</div></div>

You created a straw man out of lies then proceed to attacked it as if I said any such thing…you just cant help lying can you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many Zimbabweans are now living outside the country because of conditions under Mugabe's rule? (At least 10%?)
Don't they know that they can have a piece of land and live good lives if they return?</div></div>

I am sure more Cubans are living in Miami don’t they know that Cuba is a paradise on earth where the people own all the land????

johnnycakes
07-27-2011, 01:20 PM
&quot;Was the USSR a communist state?
Can you name an actual communist state?&quot;


Several points here.

Only numerous occasions I have explained at length:
1) what communism is and is not..
2) why the Soviet Union was not only not communist but also not socialist in the classic sense of socialism.
3) that communism has never existed and why.

Since you are repeating questions that I have answered on several occasions and have done what those on the right always do and that is ignore the truth and the facts, it makes little sense to discuss much with you.


&quot;democracy never guaranteed anyone liberty or equal access to resources.&quot;


Define democracy and point out a democratic state that existed in the 20th century or that exists in the 21st.

Archie68
07-29-2011, 01:37 AM
Fascist, you want Cuban trade with a country you claimed economically raped Cuba. I may be insane, you are stupid. You openly advocate what you oppose. You are retarded. Are you a member of the tea party?

Archie68
07-29-2011, 01:45 AM
Franksterr, read this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14331167

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The move helped to stop the economic free-fall in Zimbabwe, where at one stage a Z$100 trillion note was issued.</div></div>

We need copper pennies? A 100 TRILLION note?

Are these lies? The people prosper? Dred, you has lost touch.

franksterr
08-17-2011, 07:15 PM
&quot;Was the USSR a communist state?
Can you name an actual communist state?&quot;


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Several points here.

Only numerous occasions I have explained at length:
1) what communism is and is not..
2) why the <span style="color: #CC0000">Soviet Union was not only not communist but also not socialist in the classic sense of socialism.</span>
3) that <span style="font-weight: bold">communism has never existed</span> and why.</div></div>

Exactly

By classic you mean theoretical????



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you are repeating questions that I have answered on several occasions and have done what those on the right always do and that is ignore the truth and the facts, it makes little sense to discuss much with you. </div></div>

You force this redundant question, with you one must always start with the basics or you end up in a long diatribe going where I started.




<span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;democracy never guaranteed anyone liberty or equal access to resources.&quot;</span>

Yeah well have it?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Define democracy and point out a democratic state that existed in the 20th century or that exists in the 21st.</div></div>

Look there are many forms of democracy, maybe as many as claim to be a democracy.
Your definition of socialism and communism makes them none existent, as will your definition of democracy make it either historical or theoretical….in other words non-existant.

My definition of democracy is simple, a country in which there is freedom of movement, protest, to gather, of press, of speech, to elect their own representative and or government from among themselves for themselves.

As such a deem many countries democracies from Zimbabwe to the US.

franksterr
08-17-2011, 07:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Franksterr, read this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14331167

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The move helped to stop the economic free-fall in Zimbabwe, where at one stage a Z$100 trillion note was issued.</div></div>

We need copper pennies? A 100 TRILLION note?

Are these lies? The people prosper? Dred, you has lost touch. </div></div>

May well be true.

Look Zimbabwe is going up against the most powerful countries in the World, they have way of making a small economy like Zimbabwe's scream and its people suffer usually by means of sanctions or covert destabilizing actions.
Nevertheless good news abound as well

<span style="font-style: italic">Zimbabwe’s new farmers are growing massive amounts of tobacco, mainly on formerly white-owned farms, and some of them are earning more than they ever dreamed possible. Tens of thousands of new farmers are working land seized from whites by President Robert Mugabe since 2000.

Peter Garaziwa, who is 55, was a potato farmer in eastern Zimbabwe’s mountains until 2004 when he was given white-owned land in a prime tobacco area south of his traditional home.

This year he says he will have produced 32 bales of Virginia tobacco produced on a farm he says is called Gazala. He does not know what happened to the white farmer, but says he uses barns built by the former owner to cure his tobacco.

Garaziwa said next year he hopes to produce even more. He was in Harare at the Boka Tobacco auction floors selling his first batch of bales.

&quot;At the moment I have got, maximum, seven bales, left, maximum, 25,&quot; said Garaziwa. &quot;Tobacco farming, this is the second year. Before that I was just studying how to grow this tobacco, so I am now dealing with tobacco and I take tobacco as my project.’

Garaziwa and his wife said they are satisfied with the prices for their tobacco on the large auction floor south of Harare.

Industry specialists estimate there are 47,000 small scale tobacco farmers, most of whom came into the industry in the past two years. In 2004 there were about 4,000 small-scale black farmers.</span>
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/afri...-122517789.html (http://www.voanews.com/english/news/africa/Zimbabwe-Farmers-Increasing-Tobacco-Production-on-Seized-Land-122517789.html)

Where the problem lies for the future is what the neo colonialist are doing with the seeds and forcing a cash crop mentality which is s set up for food insecurity....using food as a weapon to achieve regime change is cruel.

Archie68
08-30-2011, 02:57 AM
You win. Zimbabwe is doing well. Good night and walk good.

franksterr
09-06-2011, 04:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You win. Zimbabwe is doing well. Good night and walk good. </div></div>

Thanks for the concession, but I would hope you have learned of the errors inherent in your thinking but I am afraid that has not changed.

Zimbabwe is doing well considering that the facts of the powers arrayed against Zimbabwe.
Sure I do not believe that everyone in Zimbabwe is doing great, but that was never the case. What I know is that more Zimbabweans especially black Africans of Zimbabwe are doing better since the advent of Mugabe and ZANU - that is undeniable. Also they are powerful forces wish to turn the success of ZANU into failures, in that effort they have enlisted the media to blow up and propagandize every small failings especially the ones they are behind. Those facts you do not want to accept.

Sure If I and my family are starving to death, I will support the biggest racist so that we may eat, that does not mean that the racist is right, what it really means is that I have been coerced, to support a cause that is detrimental to mine and my families future.( If perchance I may food secure my family - even if not myself then the situation will be different) Given that situation it would be my hope that someone not suffering under the immediate duress of imminent death from starvation will speak out about the wrongs being perpetrated on me and my family. So that the truth be known that greedy Western Racist are the real cause and not those who are being wrongfully maligned as such.....ZANU and Mugabe are freedom fighters have been and still ARE.

This is what the Western white Racist are doing to Zimbabwe, using food as a weapon to effect regime change and you supports this usurpation of the people of Zimbabwe's will and chance at controlling their future.

<span style="font-weight: bold">AGAIN I ASK ANSWER ME THIS ONE QUESTION </span>;- <span style="color: #FF0000">WHEN DID WHITE GOVERNMENTS STOP BEING RACIST?</span>

Archie68
09-14-2011, 01:06 AM
Good night and my best wishes for you and those you love.

franksterr
09-14-2011, 08:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good night and my best wishes for you and those you love. </div></div>

And I wish the same to you and your family. http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif