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evanovitch
05-09-2011, 04:06 PM
HAVANA (AP) — Cuba has made official what had been rumoured for weeks: It is legalising real estate and car sales and enacting other major changes.

But the Communist Party's newly released economic guidelines give few specifics, meaning islanders must wait for the fine print when the strategy becomes law.


The guidelines published today say the state ought to "establish the buying and selling of homes" for citizens. There is no mention of how the system will work, what restrictions will be imposed or taxes levied. The Parliament must still approve the changes.

The guidelines also call for legalising the sale of cars. They make clear, however, that the state is not yet in a position to sell most Cubans new cars through state-owned businesses.

johnnycakes
05-09-2011, 10:01 PM
With the Cuban Communist Party meeting over and new ideas and reforms coming into play, things should be interesting.

I have been reading what I can of what is coming but there does not seem to be much hard news out on the reforms and changes.

The Cubans who write on havanatimes.org seem skeptical of the changes. They feel that many of their beefs have been blown off or not accorded the discussions or changes the people think they should get.


It is a bit early to say one way or the other but what does seem clear is that despite the hopes of the United States, Cuba is not getting on that slippery slope back to capitalism. Individual enterprises within the centralized socialist economy is what we can expect . They are not about to go capitalist and especially not while the U.S is waging an economic war on them to bring down Cuban socialism. They have too much pride to surrender to the enemy of mankind after 50 years of struggle and a life that they know is made difficult by the capitalist bullies to the north.

Wahalla
05-10-2011, 04:43 AM
Yes mi primo gallego now reconstructed capitalism.. He is now in the class of being called:
a running dog,
pimp,
stupid
does not understand the cuban poltical systemt,
an apologist for murder .

After all when I made the prediction / recommendation that this would happen in Cuba, those were the names I was called on here without the intervention of the moderator....

note I am always amused when when any one calls a dictator a dictator their apologist counter with "u dont understand our system" Gadaffi used that same argument

All Raul dfid was formalise what was taking place in Cuba.. A barter system has long replaced the formal economy and alot more money escapes being captured by the authrorties. I hope they get a coherent tax system in place to increase their revenue...

Next up is the reinvention of an loyal opposistion in Cuba based on an offshoot of the former communist party which shared power with Batista as the old guard try to oppose the reforms...

lonewolf
05-10-2011, 10:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is a bit early to say one way or the other but what does seem clear is that despite the hopes of the United States, Cuba is not getting on that slippery slope back to capitalism. Individual enterprises within the centralized socialist economy is what we can expect . </div></div>

Yeah, right.....keep spinning and spinning. You can dress this pig up any way you like, but when you remove it's disguise, it's still a pig......Holding on by your finger nails?
Cuba eventually will be communist by name only.

johnnycakes
05-10-2011, 11:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lonrwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is a bit early to say one way or the other but what does seem clear is that despite the hopes of the United States, Cuba is not getting on that slippery slope back to capitalism. Individual enterprises within the centralized socialist economy is what we can expect . </div></div>

Yeah, right.....keep spinning and spinning. You can dress this pig up any way you like, but when you remove it's disguise, it's still a pig......Holding on by your finger nails?
Cuba eventually will be communist by name only. </div></div>



Wolfie,

Better to keep your mouth shut and have people suspect that you are as ill-informed as you are than to post something and have those suspicions confirmed.

II will try again to explain that Cuba is not communist. There was never a communist country. Communism is a future utopian state which communist parties are SUPPOSED to be working towards .
The interim step between capitalism and communism is socialism .
Cuba is a SOCIALIST state with government control of most of the economy.

Were I you I'd spend more time looking at the demise of capitalism.

How's THIS country doing economically?
How's the EU doing ?
How are most Third World countries doing with capitalism.
How is globalization of corporate control of societies doing?

And if you think Cuba is a dictatorship what do you think corporate control of your life is?

Archie68
05-17-2011, 03:21 AM
I love your tripple talk!!!!

johnnycakes
05-18-2011, 12:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love your tripple talk!!!! </div></div>


I love your double &quot;p&quot; in tripple.

Why not triPPPle ?

Why not try to answer the questions instead of making empty criticisms ?

Archie68
05-19-2011, 03:27 AM
That grammer/spelling distraction? Focus on content. Only a fool focuses on how things are said instead of what was said. In all cases, such people are trying to deflect from the issue. Wornout. It points to intellectual exhaustion on your point. AKA....pulling at straws.

I have no need to answer questions. You do.

You support a system that admits its principles are complete failures.

I love to watch you dance around and try your wornout tactics. I do.

johnnycakes
05-19-2011, 12:22 PM
&quot;You support a system that admits its principles are complete failures. &quot;


Archie,

Show me who when and where in Cuba said that its socialist principles are complete failures.

That is an American fiction that you have chosen to swallow because it is convenient for you.

Were Cuba's system a failure, the 50 year embargo/war would not be necessary to try to make it a failure.

You're in deep and blind denial unaffected by inconvenient facts as all our previous exchanges have shown..

Archie68
05-21-2011, 12:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Show me who when and where in Cuba said that its socialist principles are complete failures.</div></div>

Show me where socialists demand that capitalist hire 500,000 fired socialist employees?

Why do you do this? I am not tired but I tired of your stupidity.

Do you work for the CIA? Everything you say undermines your point.

johnnycakes
05-21-2011, 12:58 PM
&quot;Show me where socialists demand that capitalist hire 500,000 fired socialist employees?&quot;


Archie,

What gave you the mistaken idea that Cuba's reforms are capitalist in nature?

People working for themselves or with a few employees is not considered capitalism except perhaps by people with no real knowledge of economic or even the meaning of the terms socialism or capitalism.

The WISHFUL thought that Cuba is going backwards into capitalism is held only by the very old Cubans who came to this country with their boy Batista AND those stupid enough to believe right wing blather.

I find it amazing that people who KNOW that the government and the media lie like rugs on things like this choose to believe this obvious nonsense.


I keep a cartoon taped up nearby that has a man saying: &quot;Oh sure they lied to me about this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this but you know....I believe them on this.&quot;

I'll write in Archie on his shirt.

Archie68
05-22-2011, 03:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> People working for themselves or with a few employees is not considered capitalism except perhaps by people with no real knowledge of economic or even the meaning of the terms socialism or capitalism.</div></div>

Joncalvin, please take this back. YOUR IGNORANCE IS STUNNING. The speak of these things without any knowledge?

As your proof read, the matters of import escape you.

Retard, I want you to search for two words. Did you read that...two words.

They are: Petit Bourgeois

How can you be so ignorant? How can you advocate socialism without knowing what socialism advocates?

Wahalla
05-22-2011, 05:14 AM
Last week a rig arrived in cuba. Repsol the operator was able to sell participation in a convoluted manner shares in the project. This was allowable. So all the cuban goverment did was allow their citzens to do what transnationals do in cuba.

In 2002, i pointed out that the cuban goverment had begun to close mum and pop resturants. I was told that these enterprises were capitalism. and this was me supporting prostitution. Personal initative was not an economic driver. That to suggest this was contatary to socialism. That the cubans would never allow this.

I was insulted called stupid and a pimp. And any support of private buisness was murder. Guess what every thing i advocated has been put in place. The cuban goverment agreed with each of my reccomendations.

again with 10 % 0f the arable land devoted to vegtable farming private initive produces 50 % of the vegtables?

Next it will be the split in the communist party. Some wlll stick with this model based on centralised control. The other part will support wahallaism. Unless parties are legalised there will be mass arresst by the dominant part. So the onway forward is independent trade unions, multiple parties, private buusness.

lonewolf
05-22-2011, 10:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the onway forward is independent trade unions, multiple parties, private buusness.
</div></div>

I agree, it's either change with the times or get left behind. The powers that be know if they don't change another revolution would eventually occur.

johnnycakes
05-22-2011, 07:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lonrwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the onway forward is independent trade unions, multiple parties, private buusness.
</div></div>

I agree, it's either change with the times or get left behind. The powers that be know if they don't change another revolution would eventually occur. </div></div>



Wahalla and Wolfie,

If the Cubans were stupid enough to adopt those things which they are not, they'd have the economic failure that we have.

Since neither of you read Hvanatimes.org you really don't know how the Cuban people feel about things reading and relying on information and wishful thinking from the capitalist press which parrots the talk and thinking of the States Department.

Independent trade unions are necessary under capitalism in order to get working conditions etc forced out of the bosses whose primary interest is keeping all the money.

Corporate power and the media have pretty much destroyed the unions in the United States.

Multiple parties ? LOL BOADWL and all of the things people use here to indicate sarcasm and ridicule.

Multi-party systems are what we have in the United States and Jamaica .
They are not only no more democratic than is the Cuban system but they are not reformable. The U.S/ Jamaican systems are ossified, rigid, unchangeable.

The Cuban system is constantly undergoing change since it's beginning not that long ago.

Private business? Sure. The Cubans also want to lose their houses, have their pensions lost, have massive and constant unemployment, lousy healthcare and education.

HELLO !

lonewolf
05-23-2011, 10:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since neither of you read <span style="font-weight: bold">Hvanatimes.org</span> you really don't know how the Cuban people feel about things reading and relying on information and wishful thinking from the capitalist press which parrots the talk and thinking of the States Department.
</div></div>

It's a government controlled newspaper. Everything that is in print in Cuba is government controlled Even more so than our own media sources in the US. You vehemently oppose US news sources as unreliable, but you don't have any problem believing a Cuban news source? Why? Since you have not visted Cuba in your life time and have not spoken to the Cuban people personally, means you know nothing more than anyone else that has not visited the country. All information that you gather is sought and obtained from sights that agree with your agenda or what you want to perceive as truth. That's fine, we all have a tendancy to gravitate to sources of information that we want to beleive as the truth, but you put an absolute on every bit of your opinion.
Why can't you put your personal agenda aside and seek what is real rather than what you want to perceive as the truth? Your opinion is no better or worse than anyone else's opinion..... I must remind you that Wahalla has actually been to Cuba.
He may have an advantage at this point in time.

johnnycakes
05-23-2011, 03:05 PM
&quot;It's a government controlled newspaper. Everything that is in print in Cuba is government controlled&quot;


Thank you Wolfie,

You have made a point that I have been trying to make for about a year.

That point is that it is a given that when I present an article or a website that runs counter to the thinking of people who accept the U.S. government position on things and notably right wingers but also those who are just opposed to any position I hold because of my often unpleasant tone and my unpopular political and moral positions, those articles and websites are rarely read or visited by those people.

In this case it's the Havanatimes.


It is not a newspaper, it is a website.

It is not government controlled, but rather is TOLERATED by the government now headed by Raul Castro.

Had you actually read anything about the website or on the website including the many many articles/ diary entries extremely critical of Cuba''s economic and political system those facts would have been obvious.

All of the articles and entries are by regular Cubans, none of whom can be considered to be publishing for the benefit of the government but rather to freely express their opinions.


Here's what you might have discovered had you actually looked at the website.

http://www.havanatimes.org/?page_id=571

f0rTyLeGz
05-23-2011, 05:56 PM
Jamaicans.com has about ten times the readership as the Havanatimes.org site. I bet less than 100 people IN Cuba ever read at the site. And it isn't edited in Cuba. Cubans don't have the internet... or very few Cubans have the internet I should say.

Perhaps you saw this?

http://www.havanatimes.org/?p=36094

johnnycakes
05-23-2011, 10:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaicans.com has about ten times the readership as the Havanatimes.org site. I bet less than 100 people IN Cuba ever read at the site. And it isn't edited in Cuba. Cubans don't have the internet... or very few Cubans have the internet I should say.

Perhaps you saw this?

http://www.havanatimes.org/?p=36094 </div></div>


A couple of points;

I read the interview with Circles Robinson months ago and he and I have exchanged e-mails.

He has to run the site from his home country, Nicaragua since he lost his translating job in Cuba and couldn't stay without employment there.

Havanatimes.org is about two years old and I'm more concerned with its readership OUTSIDE Cuba that inside Cuba since ALL Cubans know everything the writers at Havanatimes have to say and the uninformed, misinformed and DISINFORMED people in the States and Jamaica do not.

The Cubans like most Third Worlders do not have the hundreds of dollars it costs to own a computer but the Venezuelans have run an undersea cable to Cuba to enable wideband service they were unable to get from the United States which seeks to destroy the revolution.

If and when the USA ends the embargo we will be able to send our unused and somewhat outdated computers to Cuba as we ourselves update our own equipment.


It is good to see that at least you have the intellectual curiosity and courage to read what the Havanatimes website has to offer.

f0rTyLeGz
05-24-2011, 03:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Do high-ranking Communist Party officials accumulate personal wealth in a way comparable to politicians in capitalist countries?</span>

That is a difficult one to answer, since there is no real investigative journalism allowed in Cuba. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Can you tell us if there exists any workplace democracy? Are Cuban workers involved in planning and decision-making? And what rights do workers have when in dispute with the company leadership?
</span>
Cuban workers are rarely involved in planning and decision-making. They are informed of centralised planning and decisions made from above, but their voices are rarely taken into account. From what I could see at places where I worked, and in those of friends and colleagues, Cuban workers are pretty much defenceless in disputes with the administration.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Castro apologists outside Cuba are enthusiastic about the democratic election system, whereby Cuban workers stand their own candidates. What can you tell us about this?</span>

The Cuban electoral system looks far better on paper than it does in practice. Virtually no campaigning is permitted: the posting of candidate résumés is as far as it goes. Moreover, candidates have to go through an initial party screening process that is seldom discussed.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">How much influence do the elected candidates have over government policies?
</span></span>
Those who are finally elected have relatively little influence on policies and in the case of the nation’s parliament the 600-plus legislators meet for only two very brief sessions a year, during which time they are presented with figures and explanations by the different ministers and the top leaders. Many appear to simply go along with what is put forward out of trust in the revolutionary government.</div></div>

Wahalla
05-24-2011, 08:10 AM
good answers and this is in line with my experience of the place...

Wahalla
05-24-2011, 08:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That is a difficult one to answer, since there is no real investigative journalism allowed in Cuba.

</div></div>

At least two officals were executed for accumulating wealth.. one a general... tip of ice berg....Fidel wore armani suits on a trip to the US so one assumes that all the workers in Cuba had armani sutis

lonewolf
05-24-2011, 09:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It's a government controlled newspaper. Everything that is in print in Cuba is government controlled&quot;


Thank you Wolfie,

You have made a point that I have been trying to make for about a year.

That point is that it is a given that when I present an article or a website that runs counter to the thinking of people who accept the U.S. government position on things and notably right wingers but also those who are just opposed to any position I hold because of my often unpleasant tone and my unpopular political and moral positions, those articles and websites are rarely read or visited by those people.

In this case it's the Havanatimes.


It is not a newspaper, it is a website.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We’ve made it to year two of Havana Times, and the <span style="font-weight: bold">online publication</span> has continued to grow both in audience and contributors. Without any publicity effort, relying on word of mouth and the search engines, the site now occupies an important space in the<span style="font-weight: bold"> digital press</span> on Cuba, providing a voice to numerous individuals who care about the island and its future</div></div>


So what, it's not in print on a piece of paper. It's still a digital press. The word &quot;press&quot; in reference to the pressing of ink on to paper. It's still a news source, and as you say yourself it's &quot;tolerated&quot; by the government. This means the information is tempered or controlled by the staff of the paper, excuse me, the &quot;digital press&quot;, for fear of being forbidin to publish. That is not freedom of the press Fear of having to watch what you publish is still censorship..


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Havana Times remains visible for the relatively small segment of the population in Cuba that has Internet,<span style="font-weight: bold"> as the censors have not classified us as part of the dissident </span><span style="font-weight: bold">blogger world </span>that gets their sites blocked</div></div>


CENSORS? NOT GOVERMENT CONTROLLED? Yeah, right. I'm not convinced.

johnnycakes
05-25-2011, 02:07 PM
Wolfie,

We long ago agreed that you would never be convinced that the Cuban revolution is a good thing.
You blew off the charge that you did not, do not and have no intention of reading the Havanatimes and did not refute it.

They are not government controlled and you confirmed this.

&quot;as the censors have not classified us as part of the dissident blogger world'

Censors ARE government officials and the censors in Cuba do not touch Havanatimes.org or the Cuban people who write for the website.

lonewolf
05-26-2011, 08:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Censors ARE government officials and the <span style="font-weight: bold">censors in Cuba do not touch Havanatimes.org </span>or the Cuban people who write for the website. </div></div>

As long as what is published is approved by the censors(government). The censors are still watching the site. The few Cuban people that have internet have censored internet. Government approves or disaproves of what is allowed for view. It's obvious that Havanatimes knows what they can get away with and what they can't.

It's cut and dry. Censorship is censorship.

johnnycakes
05-26-2011, 10:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lonrwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Censors ARE government officials and the <span style="font-weight: bold">censors in Cuba do not touch Havanatimes.org </span>or the Cuban people who write for the website. </div></div>

As long as what is published is approved by the censors(government). The censors are still watching the site. The few Cuban people that have internet have censored internet. Government approves or disaproves of what is allowed for view. It's obvious that Havanatimes knows what they can get away with and what they can't.

It's cut and dry. Censorship is censorship. </div></div>



Good argument. They're censored but they're not censored.

They are not censored because :

1) none of the writers at havanatimes.org work for the U.S government as the jailed &quot;journalists&quot; did.

2) Their criticisms are valid and recognized as such. Very few of the writers are against the not-quite democratic socialism they have and want ONLY to fix what's wrong much as those in love with capitalism and the two-party system want to do here.

3) Raul may be easing up where he can to make life easier until the embargo gets lifted by the next Republican president.(Since he's had a hard time fighting down charges of being a socialist, Obama won't do it. The only thing Obama likes about Cuba is Guantanamo)

and.....how would you know anything about Cuba given those joke websites you look at and given your avoidance of objective and scholarly sources. You cannot speak effectively on havanatimes since you don't read it.


Here, read/ignore a few of these reports:
http://web.gc.cuny.edu/bildnercenter/publications/ChangingCuba.shtml

Archie68
06-03-2011, 02:12 AM
When I read your words, I wonder if:

1. You are a CIA plant.
2. Or, you are as stupid as your posts suggest